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WhoWhatWhen
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NefariousCI hate you, javascript. [00:52]
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gygeswhat is tikiwiki [04:19]
franckgyges: http://info.tikiwiki.org/ [04:21]
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leon007Greetings... I have a question about performance... I have my little web-site www.schneidermans.org and it takes 10-15 seconds for the first load, and about 3-5 seconds for subsequent loads...
Any ideas of how to improve it? I was using firefox profiling and it looks like none of the javascript nor css files are gzipped
I don't seem to be able to turn gzip on using mod_gzip in my host set up AND I do have gzip option turned on under tw general admin. 		[04:58]
chibaguyleon007, sorry, no suggestions. I guess improvement has to happen at the coding level.
Your site loaded here in about 6 seconds, btw.
(fast line) 		[05:04]
leon007thanks chibaguy... But is that a normal time for your web-sites? I tried it from several locations, not just from my home...
I wonder also if the very, very first connection, when there is no SQL database connection existing yet, if that takes longer or not? 		[05:07]
chibaguyMy other sites make more sql queries, etc., so take a little longer.
I'm not sure about the initial sql connection time.
On the design side, I think we should look into combining css files and js files some way, maybe. Things like that.
To reduce requests.
Well, some are nobrainers, like combining the two css_menu.css files. 		[05:12]
leon007Have you used "Yslow" tool from Yahoo - it's pretty good
it says that overlib.js takes about 700 ms to load 		[05:17]
chibaguyNo, I haven't tried Yslow, but will take a look.
I've heard comments like "you're still using overlib?"
from people checking out Tiki...
With the new libraries being added, maybe it can be replaced.
But I'm not expert enough to evaluate these things, really. 		[05:20]
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chibaguyah, just installed Yslow. Very interesting. [05:31]
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leon007chibaguy, just for kicks and giggles I ran minimizer on javascripts - it improves performance somewhat, but not as great as it would have done with gzip of css and js... I wonder why I can't get it working in the .htaccess? [05:50]
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chibaguyI don't know much about this, really. [06:02]
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leon007chibaguy, minimizing .js and .css saved me a whole lot of 500 ms :( [06:03]
chibaguyAbout the Yslow performance measures, seems like some are outside of Tiki's scope, but we should try to improve where we can.
Does minimize just remove white space? 		[06:03]
leon007I think pretty much... strips whitespaces and comments
overlib.js goes from 49.2K to 33.5K
but if I zip it - it becomes like 9K
I actually learnt about Yslow from here
http://dev.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=Yslow
I checked tikis homepage and it is fast even though there isn't any compression. Just shows how good to have a dedicated server and not share it with 500 other web-sites (I am not joking - I checked - I share IP h 400-500 other websites) :( 		[06:06]
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chibaguyJust for fun, some other Yslow performance scores: tw.o: F (44), drupal.org D (69), joomla.org D (61), wordpress.org B (85), Twiki D (62), Xoops F (44), Typo3 D (64).
(explained here: http://developer.yahoo.com/performance/rules.html#num_http )
er, top of page: http://developer.yahoo.com/performance/rules.html 		[07:13]
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ParagtimHi all, Hopefully a simple question. I need to add a php include or 1 line, that is used by a stats package, into the "index" page (tiki-index.php?). When I do it breaks the page. Any ideas what am I doing wrong? [07:52]
PS|botSVN: Commit by pkdille :: r 14760 /branches/2.0/ (2 files in 2 dirs): [FIX] imagals sorting by image count (ticket 1962): fix request [FIX] browse image gallery: fix the sorting by filesize which is, for the subgals, the number of images. [07:55]
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PS|botSVN: Commit by matwho :: r 14761 /trunk/db/tiki.sql: [ENH] Added 2 fields to allow for group/shared email inboxes in webmail [10:31]
SVN: Commit by matwho :: r 14762 /trunk/db/tiki_2.0to3.0.sql: [ENH] Added 2 fields to upgrade script to allow for group/shared email inboxes in webmail [10:43]
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ricks99hi all :)
new 2.0 registration problem....
when using anti-bot registration protection...
if i enter an invalid email address, tiki prompts me to please enter a valid email. i then get the 'wrong registration code' alert :( 		[12:17]
ParagtimI had the same problem before and the only way I could fix it was to dump the anti-bot and just use email validation [12:19]
ricks99its a bug in the tiki-register.php. sylvieg fixed a similar one dealing with trackers + registration
have a feeling it is the same type of issue 		[12:20]
ParagtimI think so - Even Sylieg's fix did not work for me :( [12:21]
ricks99really? bummer. worked ok for me [12:21]
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ParagtimI got around it by dumping the anti-bot and as the site is going to be on an intranet registration is not such a pressing problem [12:23]
sylvieghttp://tikiwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tikiwiki/trunk/tiki-register.php?r1=13779&r2=14417 should work for invalid email - works for me in trunk for mandatory field [12:23]
ParagtimThe lack of an email system - now that is a problem :)
I think the lack of e-mail is probably what stopped sylieg's fix in my case 		[12:23]
ricks99sylvieg: im talking about email field on registration form (not a tracker) [12:25]
sylviegah ok ricks99 - I got also the problem it is the email in the fist page not the tracker [12:25]
ricks99if u enter an email in an invalid format (such as Foo@bar) tiki prompts to reenter
k. u see now? 		[12:25]
sylviegyes [12:26]
ricks99easy fix, i hope (fingers crossed) [12:26]
sylviegsylvieg needs to finish the same job that yesterday before looking at fix - so late on my schedule [12:27]
ricks99np. [12:27]
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MacLeodThe Tags page in doc.tw.o sez that trackers can be tagged, but the freetag module doesn't display when viewing a tracker, and the tracker edit form doesn't show any field for tags.
Am I missing something? 		[13:06]
ricks99wow. didnt know trackers could b tagged [13:10]
lphuberdeauI would guess you need to enable some other option [13:10]
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ricks99q: how to include a module from a tpl? {include file="modules/mod-foo.php"} doesnt seem to work? [13:10]
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PS|botSVN: Commit by sylvieg :: r 14764 /trunk/lib/ (2 files in 2 dirs): [FIX]tracker: fix the param itemId in TRACKERLIST [13:15]
MacLeodthe freetag modules appear when viewing a tracker *item*; however, when I tag one and then look at all results for that tag, there is a "tracker item" listed, but no title and no link
If I click the red "delete" x next to that item in browse_tags, I get an otherwise blank page with a one-line error message: "delete_object_tag argument missing" 		[13:18]
MatWhoHow do I enable IFRAME plugin in 3.0 [13:24]
MacLeodWhen I go back to browse_tags and search on the same tag, the "tracker item" is still listed. :(
@lphuberdeau: I've examined the admin pages and all of the permissions available for both Trackers and for Freetags, and I don't see any options or permissions that relate to enabling the tagging of trackers. 		[13:24]
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sylviegIFRAME must be enables in magic - I think
MacLeod: freetags is still experimental - there is no option for which objcet type can be freetagged - but the freetag module does not create a correct objet for some object 		[13:37]
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MatWhosylvieg: thanks
sylvieg: hum, iframe is not on the list in magic 		[14:08]
PS|botSVN: Commit by lphuberdeau :: r 14766 /trunk/ (3 files in 3 dirs): [MOD] Allow token replacement in translation strings to allow real localization
SVN: Commit by lphuberdeau :: r 14765 /trunk/lib/tikiaccesslib.php: [INDENT] No changes 		[14:14]
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MatWhocan anyone help me get my new plug-in to work ?
added new php file to wiki-plugins but when I use it I get WARNING plugin disabled. How do I enabe it?
oh well its just me and a bot today! How are you bot, do you know anything about adding a plug-in? ;) 		[15:24]
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PS|botSVN: Commit by lphuberdeau :: r 14767 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [MOD] Adapting accesslib not to spit out html if not requested [16:18]
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PS|botSVN: Commit by Jyhem :: r 14768 /trunk/templates/tiki-admin-include-look.tpl: [FIX] Default value of site style should be current style [16:39]
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nikhilodeonhi, in reference to the following issue I had posted at TikiWiki 2.0: Filtering Search Results - http://dev.tikiwiki.org/tiki-view_tracker_item.php?itemId=2024&trackerId=5 – could someone point me in the right direction regarding where the SELECT queries are defined for /tiki-searchresults.php page? specifically, the WHERE clause...i would like to tweak it a bit [16:47]
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Caarrie|away is now known as Caarrie 		[16:53]
snarlydwarfwishlist: since I am forced to deal with drupal for some projects here, I have seen some interesting things to steal, like their 'Token' module that lets you make up urls and file names based on useful things... like it would be slick to have a file/image gallery that used /path/to/gallery-name for its path
would take a ton of work to sneak that into tw, though :/
but would make for a lot more friendly urls too 		[17:00]
MatWhosnarlydwarf: can you just put a urlredirect in htaccess [17:09]
snarlydwarffor some, yeah, but then there is a bunch of tpl mods, and that still doesnt get down to files [17:10]
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MatWhotrue, i will have a look at drupal some time
hi all I have a new plugin (it allows you to embed Google Docs in a wiki page) but I wanted to ask some questions about distributing it and adding some permissions to control its use. Can anyone help? 		[17:11]
snarlydwarfdrupal is sorta neat, but, their dev model sucks... (not that TW is pefect either) But 6.x came out months ago, but crucial modules are still not ported to it
so despite 6.x being 'real' and 7.x being their dev branch.. most people use.. 5.
tw's playing things closer together avoids that, though they don't have the depth of silly modules that dru has.. but then they don't get stuck with people runing 2 yr old code while waiting for ports
adding permissions like in tw permissions?
tw permissions are easy to add, look at some of the db/*sql files, just a bunch of insert's ito the users_permissions tables to identify them and some code in the php to actually check them 		[17:18]
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PS|botSVN: Commit by jonnybradley :: r 14769 /trunk/tiki-editpage.php: [ENH] Reformatting only walk_and_parse() func - no code changed [17:41]
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PS|botSVN: Commit by lphuberdeau :: r 14770 /trunk/ (7 files in 6 dirs): [NEW] Export page list as web services [17:43]
MatWhosnarlydwarf: thanks, i agree about Drupal, that is exactly what put me off [17:43]
nikhilodeon_hi, i am trying to apply an instr function in a .tpl file - does smarty have an equivalent function? [17:45]
MatWhonikhilodeon_: have a look at http://www.smarty.net/manual/en/language.modifiers.php [17:46]
ricks99anyone know how to call/execute a module php from within a tiki tpl? [17:49]
snarlydwarfnikhilodeon_: smarty has strstr [17:50]
nikhilodeon_snarlydwarf - does this work similarly to instr? [17:51]
snarlydwarfas in "is this string 'in' the other"? yes
http://www.phpinsider.com/smarty-forum/viewtopic.php?p=52536
well thats a dumb one... actually
http://www.phpinsider.com/smarty-forum/viewtopic.php?p=49481 is smarter 		[17:51]
PS|botSVN: Commit by jonnybradley :: r 14771 /trunk/tiki-editpage.php: [FIX] HTML parser (walk_and_parse()) now copes with tables with more than one row (only works for feature_wiki_tables=new) [17:53]
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nikhilodeon_snarlydwarf: thanks so much, that solved my issue!! [18:15]
snarlydwarfnp, smarty is neat [18:16]
sylviegricks99: {wiki}{MODULE(name=) /}{wiki} or something like that [18:16]
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PS|botSVN: Commit by sylvieg :: r 14773 /trunk/templates/header.tpl: [FIX] pageLang can be empty [18:43]
ricks99success! tx sylvieg [18:53]
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MacLeodis the long-term intent for freetags that they be able to handle spaces, or not? (ref: http://tikiwiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?topics_offset=1&forumId=4&comments_parentId=30220 )
i need to figure out what instructions to give our users.
i'm leaning towards ricks99's underscore_approach 		[19:12]
ricks99dont think so. becuase currently spaces are used to separate different tags. if spaces will be accepted, need a new deliminator
but then...
what do i konw? 		[19:14]
MacLeodit's confusing having spaces work in the Folksonomy module and in tiki_browse_freetags.php, but not in the wiki page edit form or the freetags_most_popular module. [19:16]
sylviegthere is in admion->freetags the list of characters allowed for a freetag [19:17]
ricks99wow. didnt know that spaces were possible in some modules, but not others
* rick needs to read the docs more often 		[19:18]
PS|botSVN: Commit by sylvieg :: r 14774 /branches/2.0/lib/init/tra.php: backport from trunk not to have the 0 translated into an empty string [19:21]
MacLeod@sylvieg: that doesn't stop the Folksonomy module from accepting "design control" and adding the string with the space as one tag
@sylvieg: Just tested this by clicking "Only accept alphanumeric ASCII freetags (no accents or special chars)", saving prefs, and tagging a page with "design control" 		[19:22]
sylviegand is it 2 tags or one tag? [19:24]
MacLeodone tag
and if I enter design_control, it collapses *that* into designcontrol 		[19:24]
sylviegah - yeh it is the normalisation of a freetag that is saved in the database
but the form a tag is displayed depends of the first it has been entered - it a .... :-( piece of code 		[19:25]
ricks99@macleod: I use underscore. then in css, i force an underline of all tags. this way, to a user, it looks "normal" :) [19:25]
MacLeodbut "design control" stays "design control" [19:25]
sylviegyes it memorizes the first real form ..
th freetag lib comes from getlucky.net - and the feature (IMHO) a not very good
i thik we have to find anotehr library or rewrite our own 		[19:26]
SEWilco2tag clouds seem rather popular, so I would be surprised if there is only one library.
PHP is popular, so I'd be surprised if there's only one cloud tag library for PHP.
s/cloud tag/tag cloud/ 		[19:30]
MacLeodin the meantime, it looks like i should set the valid character set to "a-zA-Z0-9_" and tell everyone to use underscore [19:31]
SEWilco2Google search for "php tag cloud" might be showing several options. Google "code search" first result was http://code.google.com/p/simple-tags/wiki/TagCloud
Here's the Google Code search: http://code.google.com/search/#q=php%20tag%20cloud
Heh. Second result in code.google.com involves showing actual clouds over a Google Earth globe. Not quite what we're looking for.
"Your concept seems fuzzy and has a visibility of 2 kilometers..." 		[19:33]
MacLeodHow do I allow a hyphen to be used in tags, if it's used in the "valid character set" field to indicate a span?
ah, it looks like adding it at the end of the character string works. "a-zA-Z0-9_-" 		[19:37]
nikhilodeon_hi - i had a workaround for my issue TikiWiki 2.0: Filtering Search Results http://dev.tikiwiki.org/tiki-view_tracker_item.php?itemId=2024&trackerId=5 but thought it would be good to be able to add a simple WHERE condition to the SELECT statement - can someone point me in the right direction?
ie, which .php page i could modify and where, generally 		[19:39]
SEWilco2Good, MacLeod. The hyphen at the end is what one often has to do with "regular expressions". [19:39]
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pochacco10Hello all, I needed help with eliminating blank pages. [19:41]
marclaportepolom
blank pages are usually lack of RAM 		[19:41]
pochacco10i noticed that blank pages only occured when saving a big wiki page
10is there anything i can change?
10apache? mysql? 		[19:41]
Caarriestop using that color so that all can easily read your text [19:42]
pochaccoI'm sorry Caarrie
is it better now? 		[19:43]
Caarriedoes not have to be bold ;) [19:43]
pochaccolike this? :) [19:43]
Caarriebetter
pochacco: what is your php mem limit? 		[19:43]
pochaccoCaarrie, where can I check that? [19:46]
Caarriephpinfo [19:46]
pochaccomemory_limit 50M [19:46]
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mib_lvjbdghi, I'm having troubles setting up groups/categories for an intranet [19:52]
pochaccoCaarrie is that memory better now [19:53]
CaarrieCaarrie is not too much of a support person for tw anymore :( [19:53]
mib_lvjbdgoops, not only the intranet, but also some public site
basically, I've set category permissions to allow anonymous users to see some wiki pages
but its not working 		[19:53]
Caarrieyou have to manually set perms on each page last i checked [19:55]
mib_lvjbdgoh, is the category feature not working? [19:55]
Caarrieit is the view the listing of pages in the category last i used it [19:55]
mib_lvjbdgyeah, I chose to do it via categories because its easier than having to set perms on each page :(
I have tiki_p_view_categories set for anonymous 		[19:55]
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mib_lvjbdgI checked the code, and it says that as long as they don't have tiki_p_view set, they will get the denied error
is setting perms on each page the only way? 		[19:57]
pochaccomib.. let me test on my tiki [20:01]
mib_lvjbdgty :D [20:02]
pochaccomib_ [20:06]
mib_lvjbdgyeah [20:06]
pochaccoso you've set the categories
with view permission
for anno right? 		[20:06]
mib_lvjbdgwell, when I go to admin > categories
under assign permissions
there's only two options
tiki_p_view_categories and admin_categories 		[20:07]
pochaccoyou're using tiki 1.10? [20:07]
mib_lvjbdgyeah [20:07]
pochacco:) o.k let me do another test :) [20:08]
mib_lvjbdgthanks! [20:08]
pochaccoi was testing on my tiki2.0 [20:08]
mib_lvjbdgwait sorry
isn't that the same?
I was testing on 2.0
however, I updated from 1.9x -> 2.0 		[20:08]
pochaccono.... tiki2.0 has more than just 2 permissions [20:09]
mib_lvjbdgso I suspect the source of the problem *might* be buried in one of the hundreds of SQL errors
ahh 		[20:09]
pochaccoif you have tiki2.0, you should see [20:09]
mib_lvjbdg4 of them?
2 new ones w/ "categorized"? 		[20:09]
pochacco5 permissions [20:09]
mib_lvjbdg:( [20:09]
pochaccop_view_categorized [20:10]
mib_lvjbdgahh yeah that's not in there! [20:10]
pochaccop_view_categories
ic... 		[20:10]
mib_lvjbdgcan you tell me
what's the best way to fix these?
I dont' want to lose the data that I have
by reinstalling tiki 2.0 afresh 		[20:10]
pochaccodo you have a lot of customized templates? [20:11]
mib_lvjbdgor is it such a major update that I might have to input a lot of data
I have a couple, but that's not a big problem 		[20:11]
pochaccooh o.k... [20:11]
mib_lvjbdgI have had to change my template/css after the update [20:11]
SEWilco2mib_lvjbdg: When you updated, did you run both of the update scripts? You might think you don't need one, but you need two. [20:11]
pochaccowhat I did when I was upgrading 1.10 - 2.0 (pain in the butt) [20:11]
mib_lvjbdgyeah I ran both
from 1.8x to 1.9x 		[20:11]
SEWilco2Oh, too bad. [20:12]
mib_lvjbdgand then from 1.9x to ...I think it said 1.10x in the installer
but in admin > general it says I'm running tiki 2.0
I thought the two were synonymous so I left it 		[20:12]
pochaccoic...
when i wasd doign upgrade, i had to install 2.0 fresh 		[20:13]
mib_lvjbdgahh :( [20:13]
pochaccothen send the wiki pages to the new tiki [20:13]
mib_lvjbdghow did u do that? [20:13]
pochaccoyou don't have to reentering the datas [20:13]
mib_lvjbdgI don't have a massive amount of data
I just have wiki pages really
the other stuff, I don't mind losing
sql scripts? 		[20:13]
pochaccono [20:14]
SEWilco2Too bad the "dump" stuff is broken. [20:14]
pochaccotikiwiki has that feature [20:14]
mib_lvjbdgoh, sewilco2, u mean the wiki dump? [20:14]
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mib_lvjbdgwhat's the feature called pochacco? [20:15]
SEWilco2mib_lvjbdg: Something like that. I think I saw someplace that the wiki dump wasn't very good. Of course, if you have a new database and still have your old one, you can try and not hurt anything. [20:15]
pochaccoimport/export [20:15]
mib_lvjbdgahh, I'll definately give that a try
hey thanks guys 		[20:16]
SEWilco2pochacco: Is import/export the thing on the Admin>Wiki page, or intertiki linking? [20:16]
pochaccohold on
let me check
Admin>Wiki page
export the pages first
then go to the new tiki
and import it
let me see the process again 		[20:17]
SEWilco2I think intertiki should allow feeding one site's wiki content to another.
Whoops, I misrembered intertiki. It's just a multiple login tool. 		[20:18]
mib_lvjbdgthe categories feature is pretty neat I think
it was so frustrating to sit there for hours trying to get it to work
and I suspected it was something to do w/ the code...specific to my case I guess 		[20:19]
pochaccomib_lbjbdg, let me try to get th eprocess of sending the pages again [20:20]
mib_lvjbdgty :D [20:20]
pochaccohmm i forgot how i did it, but it was quite easy
you just need to send wiki pages from 1 site to another 		[20:20]
mib_lvjbdgoic
yeah the rest of the stuff I can redo
the stuff that takes the longest are wiki pages, and the custom template/css
but I think the templating and css should be the same
if I were to do the a refresh, I can just drag and drop those 		[20:20]
pochaccono... mib_lvjbdg
the templates for the new tiki is different
especially the reference
tiki 2.0 used prefs.feature_name
the old tiki used feature_name 		[20:22]
mib_lvjbdgbut I've already upgraded [20:23]
pochaccooh o.k
then you only need the wiki pages eh?
that shoudl be quick once i remembered how i send pages :) 		[20:23]
mib_lvjbdghaha yeah I think its just the database settings
like, I upgraded to 2.0, but when I told it to update my database w/ the script, I got a ton of errors
I actually looked through a good 1/2 of the errors just in case
but I got bored, and just assumed the rest were just "table already exists" sorta errors 		[20:23]
pochaccohttp://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=Communication+Center&bl=y
this is where the instruction is
but i can't remember how i get to the send/receive pages :( 		[20:29]
mib_lvjbdgI'll try to get it to work, but its comforting to nkow the feature exists
thanks so much for your help
I've gotta run 		[20:29]
pochaccosorry i can't get youthe process
good luck 		[20:30]
mib_lvjbdghaha thanks again [20:30]
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pochaccocan anyone please help me with my blank page problem? [20:34]
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SEWilco2I don't notice your blank description. It might be time to repeat your description. [20:49]
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nikhilodeon_hi - i had a workaround for my issue TikiWiki 2.0: Filtering Search Results http://dev.tikiwiki.org/tiki-view_tracker_item.php?itemId=2024&trackerId=5 but thought it would be good to be able to add a simple WHERE condition to the SELECT statement - can someone point me in the right direction? ie, which .php page i could modify and where, generally? [21:00]
marclaportenikhilodeon_ : what are you filtering by? [21:02]
nikhilodeon_marclaporte - hi, i saw your reply at dev.tw.o - right now i don't really have any filtering criteria aside from what is there out-of-the-box
i just need to add a parameter to the SELECT SQL and am not sure how to go about doing that 		[21:03]
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nikhilodeon_also can anyone point me in the right direction about making changes to the "Find" module that gets added when you check Activate on Site Search Bar checkbox in tiki-admin.php?page=look# / Look and Feel Admin page?
am having some positioning issues, and want to change the text 		[21:14]
SEWilco2nikhilodeon_: Positioning might be a .CSS issue (look in styles dir). Text probably in a template file. [21:18]
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.... (idle for 15mn)
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nikhilodeonhi - can someone tell me what {tr} means in smarty?
i thought duh, table row, but it doesn't seem to be that 		[21:57]
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MatWho_any thing in {tr} {/tr} the string is looked for in the language.php file If it is found, the prefilter translates it. [22:02]
SEWilco2Is the random image plugin accessible through a URL, so I can use <IMG src="stuff"> to insert a random image in my site header? [22:13]
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SEWilco2Someone was asking recently for random text? I see "Cookie" in doc.tw.o Documentation. [22:59]
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PS|botSVN: Commit by kerrnel22 :: r 14776 /branches/experimental/kerrnel-2.5/ (3 files in 3 dirs): [NEW] Initial efforts at the reporting tool. Does not work at the moment. Committing what I've got done so we can reference it at TikiFest DC this weekend.
SVN: Commit by sylvieg :: r 14777 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [FIX]lang: when using custom.php language, array_merge is used and changes all the numeric keys so that lang[1] can become 2: --> big awful patch take away the translation of any numbers (as it is not done everywhere, can have sense), use something else than array_merge but what?, have another format in custom.php to not uase array_merge?? 		[23:07]
sylviegI was asking for random.. [23:12]
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PS|botSVN: Commit by matwho :: r 14778 /trunk/lib/wiki-plugins/wikiplugin_googledoc.php: [ENH] Google docs wiki page plugin, now supports spreadsheets, wordprocessor docs and presentations [23:19]
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MatWho_who knows what tiki-jsplugin.php is all about?
someone who does not like using comments, please step forward ;)
OK I have tried the carrot - now the stick. Am going to delete tiki-jsplugin.ph - anybody care, please let me know? 		[23:50]
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