#tikiwiki 2009-04-20,Mon

(Click on time to select a line by its url)

Who	What	When
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marclaporte	hi lindon! how are you?	[00:14]
lindon	hi marclaporte! doing good, thank you my login doesn't work anymore on the demo site you set up for me :(	[00:15]
marclaporte	hehe try admin/admin or admin/1234 it's a test/throwaway site I wonder how the weirdness happened though all the weird characters	[00:20]
lindon	yes that was bizarre	[00:22]
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lindon	i remember my clicks so i may (or may not!) retrace my steps	[00:22]
marclaporte	You have seriously increased my motivation with doc.tikiwiki.org	[00:24]
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marclaporte	I think I have been working on it for like 20 hours during the last few days	[00:24]
lindon	great to hear one thing i was wondering is the plan to replace admin home with magic admin? i'm in the demo - thank you	[00:25]
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marclaporte	magic is on hold Now that Ricks99 has done amazing job on the admin panels, it reduces need for magic I would still want to do so we can have quick search of admin setting. Have an ajax select box. You type in a few letter and it lets you change a setting quikcly.	[00:27]
lindon	sounds good mainly wondering from a documentation perspective whether to maintain admin panel pages or transition to magic	[00:30]
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lindon	another question what does "List of Url Parameters that should go in the path" do on the SEFURL admin page?	[00:37]
marclaporte	whether to maintain admin panel pages or transition to magic -> good question. I think for now, we can focus on making each individual page/task/etc as good as possible. And then, once we are happy with that, perhaps a pattern will emerge Some people want to read the doc end to end to see what Tiki can do In other cases, they have an option somewhere in Tiki and they just clicked a link to find out more admin panels change quite a bit si it's tricky to maintain doc about them List of Url Parameters that should go in the path: I don't know sylvie or slj will know	[00:40]
lindon	agree documentation on admin panels takes a lot of work to keep up to date but it's also key documentation that users need help on if magic is on hold, i'll concentrate on admin home panel documentation	[00:45]
marclaporte	admin panels will move a bit more before 3.0 final so you may want to wait until May 4th :-) esp for screenshots	[00:50]
lindon	good to know - will do	[00:52]
marclaporte	so apart being blocked to delete 40 pages or so, do you need anything else to continue doing a great contribution?	[00:53]
lindon	wish I could edit content templates would eventually want to admin structures, but could also pose suggestions here instead	[00:56]
marclaporte	ok, I added the perms to your group structures, you already had	[00:59]
lindon	you're right, i hadn't checked that in a while - thanks! wanted to admin menus too just to add to author resources for appropriate group	[01:04]
luminoso	humm when uploading an flv file the upload never ends any idea about this?	[01:07]
lindon	marclaporte: also categories and dynamic content	[01:12]
	marclaporte: just noticing that i now have a developer menu	[01:22]
marclaporte	yup	[01:23]
lindon	may not need to mess with menus then thanks!	[01:23]
marclaporte	dev menu was not showing for your group	[01:23]
lindon	got it	[01:24]
marclaporte	3.0 now has a perm to admin menu before, only admins could	[01:31]
	lindon: : I just added a whole bunch of admin perms (file gallry, menu, etc)	[01:36]
lindon	thanks man! hopefully one day we'll get this to where you don't have to worry about the docs and you can focus on the developer vision thing you do so well	[01:38]
marclaporte	thank you! uploading an flv file the upload never ends : on doc.tw.o or elsewhere?	[01:47]
	you can deal with tags too	[01:58]
lindon	how do you mean?	[01:59]
marclaporte	about tags? you now perms to delete tags if you see any I cleanup quite a few earlier	[02:06]
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lindon	okay i see that now what kind of freetags are you getting rid of?	[02:11]
marclaporte	just obvious errors bots attemping to log in	[02:14]
lindon	got it	[02:15]
marclaporte	do you use full screen mode?	[02:19]
lindon	rarely	[02:20]
marclaporte	ok So, once the cleanup is "done" (at this rate, it should be very soon) After, we should have a discussion about process This seems inefficient: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/Documentation+Status+Tracker	[02:33]
lindon	agree with that good idea to discuss process	[02:36]
marclaporte	this would include translators I think we can have less structures One general multilingual structure which has everything in English, and overrides with your language if page is available	[02:38]
lindon	that does sound better for languages	[02:40]
marclaporte	we could mini-structures with most important docs 5-10 pages small enough that it's resonable to maintain ... lots of cleanup here: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/WantedPages	[02:40]
lindon	wow hadn't seen that one yet the language ones probably go away if you get rid of the documantation status page for each one was also thinking about plugins and modules wondered if these could be documented via a tracker instead of a page for each one easier to maintain might not be sufficient though	[02:43]
marclaporte	documantation status page per lang : +1 to empy pages (or delete) plugins & modules: we could also have something that links with tiki source code.	[02:46]
lindon	that's good to encourage development wanted pages: need to get away from documenting the world i think	[02:48]
	too many general concepts, general definitions etc. wanted IMHO too wikipedia	[02:55]
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sm-	is there a module for an svn browser? like the code activity on your main site?	[02:56]
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mlaporte	sm-: can you elaborate?	[03:06]
sm-	on the main site on the left hand side.. the section.. "Code Activity" with the svn browser i am looking for exactly that	[03:07]
mlaporte	ah supplied by CIA.vc	[03:08]
sm-	is it avaliable?	[03:08]
mlaporte	http://dev.tikiwiki.org/wish1995 -> It's on wishlist	[03:08]
sm-	;-(	[03:08]
mlaporte	related: http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Software_Project	[03:09]
sm-	i hope the 1995 isnt the year that wish list was made :-)	[03:09]
mlaporte	hahahaha lindon: yes, too much documenting the World I think doc.tikiwiki.org needs to be more focused and bug reports & RFEs, and info for developers go to dev.tikiwiki.org while community aspects and anything that doesn't fit elsewhere goes to tikiwiki.org	[03:09]
sm-	ok what im wondering.. is how you joined after i asked me question and asked me to elaborate? ;-)	[03:11]
mlaporte	irc.tikiwiki.org logs	[03:12]
sm-	me i mean my and oh.. didnt know that was there any kind of an eta on the svn browser?	[03:12]
mlaporte	sm-: I think Tiki is very close to being excellent platform for Software Project	[03:13]
sm-	well thats why im trying it out.. i read a forum .. somebody posted there experience with tiki with there software project and he was very happy with it	[03:14]
mlaporte	:-) Here is something in the future to complete: http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Code+Review	[03:15]
sm-	just .. its my first day with it so im having problems.. ill figure it all out im sure :-)	[03:15]
mlaporte	hehe	[03:15]
sm-	could you tell me.. what is this "tracker" module? ohh i like that ok.. how would i set it up so that certain things are in the menu? like.. certain wiki articles? for example.. "Features" i'd like it to be a wiki article but also be in the menu	[03:15]
mlaporte	trackers are way to build a database, create forms & reports So you can have a bug tracker, issue tracker, etc.	[03:23]
sm-	i found the menu setup yay! im going to bed!	[03:33]
mlaporte	later!	[03:40]
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lindon	mlaporte: i blew up the demo again :( clicked all 4 SEFURL options on the admin page and then tried to go to articles home on the main menu got all the characters again	[03:44]
mlaporte	hehe fyi, I started: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-pagehistory.php?page=Content+Creation+and+Management+Tools&diff_style=htmldiff&compare=Compare&newver=0&oldver=14&tra_lang=ar trying to reduce the number of wanted links	[03:49]
lindon	ok, i'll start working on that too	[03:52]
	clicking on a letter at the top of listpages page on the doc site only brings up pages starting with that letter in lower case only	[04:06]
mlaporte	ah not good	[04:08]
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lindon	off to bed - good night!	[04:28]
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marclaporte	later!	[04:28]
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luciash	polom	[07:44]
marclaporte	polom	[07:47]
luciash	hi marc :)	[07:49]
marclaporte	how are you?	[07:50]
CIA-46	tikiwiki: 03chibaguy * r18097 10/branches/3.0/styles/ (darkroom.css feb12.css strasa.css thenews.css): [FIX] Removed excess white space caused by switching article title from div to h2.	[07:56]
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luciash	marclaporte: great, and ya ? :)	[08:25]
marclaporte	pretty good lots of great progress on doc.tikiwiki.org thanks to Lindon	[08:25]
luciash	luciash starting open.ground business ;) yup, noticed, kewl :)	[08:26]
	seems lots of ppl to come to tikifest london it's mini-tikifest nomore in number of participants ;)	[08:31]
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luciash	wb gary :)	[08:33]
chibaguy	thanks luciash I have a plan, I would like your opinion.	[08:34]
luciash	sure	[08:35]
chibaguy	I was wondering what to do with tikinewt -- keep or move or kil.... But thought how about using it as test theme for importing layout.css? low-risk way to introduce layout.css in branch 3, I think. The other themes wouldn't be touched. This way layout.css will be in the release, and I can have the (newer) mods.tw.o themes use it. And I think it'll make things easier for other people with custom themes.	[08:35]
luciash	i personally don't mind afa it doesn't break anything	[08:38]
marclaporte	yay for tikifest london!	[08:38]
chibaguy	I have a modified tikinewt.css which has its layout-type css removed.	[08:38]
marclaporte	It's my turn to watch from home ;-)	[08:38]
luciash	marclaporte: heheh	[08:38]
chibaguy	It can replace the current branch 3 tikinewt. Plus I'll add styles/layout/layout.css. I guess that's the best path for it.	[08:38]
caralluna	caralluna is having second thoughts ...	[08:39]
chibaguy	Actually I have modified the other branch 3 theme stylesheets too, but don't want to risk introducing problems, so will wait to change them. Yeah, marclaporte, I hope they'll put on a good show for us.	[08:39]
luciash	first i thought it will be better to remove tikinewt from 3.0 to reduce work we need to keep fixing the themes included still...	[08:41]
marclaporte	marclaporte thinks chibaguy was the best cameraman in the history of TikiFests	[08:41]
chibaguy	Heh, thanks. It was fun.	[08:41]
marclaporte	marclaporte thinks tikinewt doesn't look so good. But tikinewt with theme options and different colors, could be ok	[08:41]
chibaguy	No, I don't think so either. But it can serve as a test for layout.css use.	[08:42]
marclaporte	but we have little time	[08:42]
luciash	on the other hand can you do it in trunk and include layout.css only to 3.0 ? to have it ready there for your 3.0 mods themes ?	[08:43]
chibaguy	That's true.	[08:44]
luciash	with a note it's there for mods themes maybe (when people wonder it's not used by any file)	[08:44]
chibaguy	Doing the branch 3 stylesheet 'conversions' for layout.css gave me some clues about what should be in layout.css and what left in the theme css... Actually layout.css also contains some default colors for things like wiki diff classes; nobody touches them much.	[08:45]
luciash	yeah, it's good idea to separate padding, margins and basic layout CSS stuff from look and feel stuff (font sizes, families, colors, graphics)	[08:46]
chibaguy	padding and margins are tricky, cause they can be for both/either layout/design, etc. But this can be fine-tuned after it's in svn...	[08:47]
luciash	yep, for these content usability neccesity colorings it's ok i think, because they can be overriden in theme css later then	[08:47]
chibaguy	right My idea is that transitions/ files will be unneeded because that info can go directly in layout.css. Also the (to me) confusing admin option of which transition file to use, etc. can be removed. marclaporte, I agree tikinewt with theme options, etc. could be ok. I moved the ones jonnyb made for tikineat to tikinewt's directory in my local install, and they work nicely.	[08:48]
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luciash	chibaguy: well, sometimes ppl want to opt-out the use of transition css because it breaks or affects their custom theme in some way they don't like... that's why the transition css is optional	[09:00]
caralluna	chibaguy: Transition files has always confused me too, still does	[09:02]
luciash	so i wouldn't kill that preference completely in favor of having it all in layout.css by default where only overriding it would be option to fix but maybe better way how to do it can be implemented maybe if layout.css would be optional would be sufficient	[09:02]
chibaguy	well, since layout.css is imported by theme stylesheets, these people would have the choice not to put the import line in their css file.	[09:06]
luciash	what about having transition css classes and ids listed on tiki-edit_css.php somewhat with a question to add them to user edited custom css ? ah, right, i thought layout.css will be included in template on top but if you do it using @import then fine, it will not affect older themes	[09:06]
chibaguy	that's true about opting out of transitions stylesheets, that seems rather strange to me because a lot of 'necessary' classes, etc. get put in there...	[09:08]
luciash	but still i believe the original purpose of transitions css was to serve ppl who upgrade the new non-layout specific classes easily without forcing them to manually edit css files so the transition between versions will be easier for them	[09:11]
chibaguy	that makes sense but then there is quite a risk of missing some classes if the person chooses not to use transitions/.	[09:13]
luciash	imho it wasn't very well done though... the transition css should be optional by theme actually yes, by default they're on, user can opt-out to not use the transition css if he/she prefers (in case some oddities appear after upgrade)	[09:13]
chibaguy	My feeling is that devs add things to transitions that they think are necessary, that they expect sites to use.	[09:15]
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luciash	still it serves as a nice list of what classes and ids appeared between versions, though it doesn't list classes which were removed/replaced	[09:16]
chibaguy	yes, it is good for that, but some things get added to theme stylesheets, so it's just a partial list.	[09:17]
luciash	actually, in an ideal world, they should go to transition css file too if they're important and not only one theme specific	[09:18]
chibaguy	Hm, I thought they should go to all theme stylesheets if they're important. If they're important, why would they be optional?	[09:19]
luciash	well, let me give you an example user creates custom theme where some part is really customized a lot (e.g. logo at fixed position on right bottom scrolling with page scrolling) then (imagine) in next Tiki version there's specified the logo should be always left in some circumstances (ad banner, etc.) and someone puts it in transition or your layout css accidentally the user uses same id or class for it but with lower priority weight (e.g. uses only #logo instead of #siteheader #logo which is in the new tiki version layout css) and sudenly his theme is borked in some way so the user could prefer not to use the transition/layout i know it's not the best example, but it's the spirit of preserve environment and make it optional... maybe i'm just thinking too much around the corner ;)	[09:20]
chibaguy	Sure, every new release brings that kind of problem, with css or tpls or whatever, especially for highly customized themes. But turning off transitions will solve one... problem but then all the other css in transitions isn't used either, so not really a good solution imho. I think the person who can make a highly customized theme can adjust to new releases by editing css, etc. and doesn't need an admin gui. ... with large on/off switch. Actually I did most themes/adaptations assuming transitions was not used. Then had problems when some transitions styling conflicted with my theme stylesheet. ....because there was 'design' stuff in transitions (border specified, etc.) Hopefully that's a rare case. Same problem with 'design' inline css, for example when I was doing Darkroom there were lots of cases of bad contrast because inline css assumed a light-colored background. But that's improving, too.	[09:29]
luciash	that's the point of having option to switch them off but well, if it will be done better with layout.css +1 for simplify it and having no need to use transitions css	[09:38]
chibaguy	it's good to get your views. I tend to get one idea in my head and forget about other perspectives. ;-)	[09:40]
luciash	np, it's normal, everybody does :)	[09:42]
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marclaporte	'night! all: help needed! http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Release30process#Blockers	[10:17]
caralluna	help needed to fix them you mean?	[10:31]
Tikiwiki\|bot	Welcome to the official Tikiwiki English Irc Channel. TikiWiki or better known as TW, is your Groupware/CMS (Content Management System) solution, you can get more infomation at http://info.tikiwiki.org/ .	[10:31]
caralluna	lol, Tikiwikibot is eager to h e l p :-P	[10:32]
spoonypjk	tell tikiwikibot to change the topic :)	[10:33]
caralluna	I can't ... I just know what a bot is ... I know nothing about how you can tell it to do anything :-P	[10:35]
chibaguy	Also a lot of things further down the page (quasi-blockers, etc.) really should be fixed before the release. A lot of regressions from Tiki 2 there.	[10:36]
caralluna	but yeah, it's a bit outdated now	[10:36]
chibaguy	IMHO actually more important than having new features working 100%.	[10:36]
caralluna	chibaguy: hope I could help, unfortunately I don't know any php	[10:37]
chibaguy	I know the feeling. ;-)	[10:37]
caralluna	;-)	[10:37]
luciash	úhelp voice oops :-)	[10:38]
***	ChanServ sets mode: +o luciash luciash changes topic to: Welcome to #tikiwiki! - Just ask, don't ask to ask !!! - Don't paste code/errors here, use http://pastebin.com - IRC-logging at http://irc.tikiwiki.org - Say "!help" to get info from TikiBot - Running Tiki 2.4 is very highly recommended and check out 3.0beta4 - Thanks and have fun! ChanServ sets mode: -o luciash	[10:43]
caralluna	luciash: good one :-)	[10:48]
spoonypjk	spoonypjk cheers luciash	[10:53]
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CIA-46	tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18098 10/branches/3.0/lang/fr/language.php: [FIX] typo in a french translation	[11:18]
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sm-	i need an svn browser! ;-)	[14:25]
SEWilco2	I am available to browse svn for an immodest fee. :-)	[14:27]
caralluna	lol	[14:27]
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sm-	.. not exactly what im lookin for i mean like the module on the main site there.. the one titled "code activity"	[14:28]
sylvieg	sm-: does this http://tikiwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tikiwiki/branches/3.0/ help?	[14:29]
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RobertS	ahoi	[14:44]
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caralluna	Ahoi	[14:45]
Guest43730	ah:) hi caralluna	[14:45]
caralluna	hiya :-)	[14:45]
Guest43730	dunno why i get Guest-status after typed immediatly	[14:45]
caralluna	yeah, I noticed that yesterday too	[14:46]
Guest43730	may i bother u with a new question :)?- you helped me yesterday pretty good	[14:47]
caralluna	If you are incredibly lucky it's something I know something about ;-) Fire away ;-)	[14:48]
Guest43730	its about images - they are to get into wiki-sites pretty complicated cause i have to type in the whole adress that i can see in the galary it would be alot of easier to hav a choice to get images into my "posts" directly from my PC to the post you got my problem?	[14:49]
caralluna	well, there is a thing I don't know much about but yeah, I know what you mean	[14:50]
Guest43730	well np at all it works - i was looking for easier ways :P	[14:51]
caralluna	I don't know of any, sorry	[14:51]
Guest43730	have you installed your 3.0 already and does it work?	[14:52]
caralluna	yeah and yeah :-) www.hansrune.com is my main "production" site, works very well :-)	[14:52]
Guest43730	great - do you know if i can stay with my personal changes and ma data when i want to update on a stable version3.0 later? ah i'll have a look - mine is: www.sonnenmeister.eu	[14:53]
caralluna	I don't have much experience about that, but the few times I tried it was between 3.0 betas - and that worked flawlessly	[14:54]
Guest43730	ok - i just had a short look on your page - very nice - themes for vistors - pretty handsome	[14:55]
caralluna	thanks :-) it's not a very difficult thing to enable	[14:56]
Guest43730	what is the aim of yours if there is one - do u think to built up something real?	[14:57]
sm-	sylvieg not that i can see.. im talking about a module for tikiwiki that acts as an svn browser	[14:57]
Guest43730	gimme a min cara ill try a relog	[14:58]
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RobertS	re re trying to not get guest status :P	[14:59]
caralluna	RobertS, just my personal homepage ... I'm into computers, gadgets, photos and cars ... so I guess that will be what it'll be about	[14:59]
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caralluna	hmmm weird ...	[14:59]
Guest61398	lol and guest again - what can this be - cookies or soemthing like this? ic	[14:59]
caralluna	no idea, sorry	[15:00]
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Guest61398	u said your site is on a providers VPS - so u got no speed problems i guess could u test out my site - to see if its slow for you ?	[15:01]
caralluna	well not that one ... that is @ my house on an ADSL	[15:02]
Guest61398	:)) ok ic - i just opened a lot of things under the hood - it was very slow - but worked	[15:02]
caralluna	www.rettvest.org is my test site, that is on a VPS ... try tw.rettvest.org, tw2.rettvest.org, tw3.rettvest.org, tw4.rettvest.org but the only access I have to that site from a clients perspective is through ssh - so it's not the best way to test speed guess I could set up some kind of remote desktop-thing or a proxy, but I don't have the knowledge	[15:03]
Guest61398	i was on tw4 - this was faster maybe a little - id say - its hard to say	[15:06]
caralluna	tw4 is running 4.0 of TW, so that's very early code been having a lot of trouble inserting stuff into that database	[15:07]
Guest61398	do u know where i can rename the database for my wiki - so i could take a backup first - make a new database - and restore my data on this new one? to give my tiki the database's name was only at the install-proccess at beginning a possibility - where i can change my database-name in my tiki-wiki - any idea?	[15:07]
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caralluna	hmm ... you'd have to rename it in TW through the installer I guess - and then the real database as well	[15:10]
Guest61398	how to run the installer when its already runnning?	[15:10]
caralluna	put tiki-installer.php on the end of the adress ... or was it tiki-install.php then you'll have to remove a lock file, it will tell you which	[15:11]
Guest61398	ah i got it - thx	[15:12]
caralluna	:-)	[15:12]
marclaporte	caralluna: a new feature to automatically update Tikis from source was added to TRIM	[15:13]
caralluna	marclaporte: for several tikis you mean?	[15:13]
Guest61398	brb	[15:13]
marclaporte	caralluna: : yes, several, and they update on a cron job	[15:14]
caralluna	marclaporte: Thanks, but I prefer to do that manually ... I don't have that many ;-) ... I think anyways ;-) ...but I'll check it out :-)	[15:15]
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marclaporte	:-)	[15:19]
caralluna	I read about TRIM a while back ... concluded I didn't wanna use it ... but things are changing :-)	[15:20]
marclaporte	it's getting better all the time	[15:21]
caralluna	yeah, one of the things I love about it :-P	[15:22]
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SEWilco2	What you need next to your TW workstation: Tiki head tissue box cover. http://www.amazon.com/Tiki-Head-Tissue-Box-Cover/dp/B0007U8MSA Yeah, so it's a Moai, not a Tiki. One shouldn't do that to a Tiki anyway.	[15:31]
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chibaguy_	"Frequently Bought Together -- Customers buy this item with Odd Jobs: Portraits of Unusual Occupations" "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought ... ...Grow Dammit Garden Stone... ..." oh, I won't list the rest. Too sad.	[15:36]
SEWilco2	SEWilco2 offers a tissue	[15:39]
chibaguy_	chibaguy_ hesitantly accepts....	[15:42]
SEWilco2	SEWilco2 stocks up with green tissues	[15:43]
chibaguy_	chibaguy_ is relieved at least they aren't wet wipes....	[15:44]
ChadDa3mon	This feels like a stupid question, but where in the world can I enable plugins in 3.X?	[15:47]
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ChadDa3mon	guess it was a stupid question :/	[15:48]
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chibaguy_	ChadDa3mon, tiki-admin.php?page=textarea	[15:50]
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chibaguy_	Not a stupid question; seems like I generally find what I'm looking for at Admin Textarea.	[15:52]
ChadDa3mon	....how did I miss this :(	[15:53]
chibaguy_	(ok, in the general area of wiki-related prefs, etc.)	[15:53]
ChadDa3mon	Text Area was the winner	[15:53]
chibaguy_	yesss	[15:53]
ChadDa3mon	I could swear I went through every tab of every option	[15:53]
chibaguy_	chibaguy_ just successfully ftp'ed up and installed tw 3.0beta4....	[15:54]
ChadDa3mon	did that just come out in the last hour? I tried the "check for updates" thing earlier and it said I was up to date	[15:55]
marclaporte	yes, Beta4 is fresh	[15:56]
chibaguy_	There was a message on the dev mailing list that tarballs are ready for testing. Shoutbox is still broken. ( http://mods.tikiwiki.org/tikiwiki-3.0.prebeta4.tar.bz2 )	[15:56]
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chibaguy_	(well, I guess the release of a beta raises my expectations, but of course the list of bugs still to be squashed hasn't magically disappeared.)	[16:03]
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caralluna	My site has been saying it was running beta4 for some time now ...? and I am running 3.0 svn	[16:04]
ChadDa3mon	Is there a release notes somewhere on 4?	[16:05]
chibaguy_	There's changelot.txt in the package. Is that what you mean? er, changelog.txt changelot is the description, not the name, I guess. ;-)	[16:08]
caralluna	changelot should be the correct name ;-)	[16:09]
chibaguy_	:-)	[16:09]
ChadDa3mon	heh yea, I'm downloading it now, I'll look at the file was trying to find something online	[16:09]
chibaguy_	http://zukakakina.com/tw3prebeta4/changelog.txt if you want to read now.	[16:10]
ChadDa3mon	excellent, thanks	[16:10]
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..... (idle for 20mn)
chibaguy_	g'night all	[16:38]
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ricks99	woo hoo. rick is back :)	[16:42]
marclaporte	marclaporte yay! ricks99: we need you!	[16:42]
ricks99	gotta unpack first :)	[16:42]
marclaporte	do you have a bit of time? marclaporte is unpacking Beta4 :-)	[16:42]
ricks99	beta4. gee i'm a bit behind -- too busy unpacking suitcases saw ur email wrt user prefs... thought they were on their own admin panel now	[16:43]
marclaporte	maybe they are, I just didn't see them :-)	[16:46]
ricks99	off to update from svn branches still the source for 3.0?	[16:46]
marclaporte	y	[16:47]
ricks99	source of the tarball, i mean? k	[16:47]
marclaporte	yes	[16:47]
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marclaporte	ricks99: : can you look at? http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Release30process#Installer ricks99: alos, in svn, notice how I tweaked wiki help	[17:03]
ricks99	still dont like the giant red ( ? ) looks like SEARCH to me	[17:06]
marclaporte	+1 to change big red icon it was never meant to be final but many temporary things can linger for a long time :-)	[17:07]
ricks99	gettng close to 'final' tho.... at least the admin pages look pretty :)	[17:08]
marclaporte	yes they do I moved a few more things around	[17:13]
ricks99	some install blockers look easy to do	[17:23]
marclaporte	yup The edit help would use some WYSIWYCA (ex.: remove doc about cookie if cookies are off)	[17:25]
caralluna	Are there any plans of revamping the menu creation / reorganization system?	[17:30]
marclaporte	caralluna: making menus in profiles.tikiwiki.org can be quicker than via interface I would like to see better navigation. ex.: use structures as menu	[17:35]
caralluna	uhm .. structures?	[17:36]
marclaporte	strctures make a tree from wiki pages #1 on list: http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Menu#Open caralluna: : what do you have in mind?	[17:38]
caralluna	I just find that it could probably have been easier to create menu structure	[17:41]
marclaporte	yeah, lots of clicking around...	[17:41]
caralluna	f ex what about something like inputting it into a spreadsheet and then importing it ...	[17:43]
ricks99	menus r great if the structure is static, otherwise dynamiclly created menus from wiki structures would b gr8	[17:43]
caralluna	wait, that is possible, right? importing I mean	[17:43]
marclaporte	I think so	[17:44]
caralluna	Or maybe some kind of click'n'drag thing?	[17:46]
marclaporte	that would be nice for structures as well	[17:47]
caralluna	on the other hand, the lack of click'n'drag stuff was one of the things that made TW interesting for me in the first place :-P	[17:48]
luminoso	what is the best? storing images on database or in directory?	[17:48]
caralluna	but that was in the end of 1.8, so I guess I've changed too :-D	[17:49]
marclaporte	caralluna: why?	[17:51]
caralluna	I've always been sort of minimalistic about webstuff ... but that has somewhat changed lately now the features, especially the trackers and you guys are what got me back ;-)	[17:53]
marclaporte	caralluna: so you are an "us" :-)	[17:54]
caralluna	Yeah, it's gotta be extreme to get me away now ;-)	[17:55]
ChadDa3mon	Did something happen with doc.tikiwiki.org?	[17:55]
ricks99	@luminoso: depends....	[17:55]
marclaporte	amette is aware of doc.	[17:55]
luminoso	ricks99, on what? dos database compress jpegs?	[17:55]
ricks99	@lsee docs for discussion of +/- of each	[17:56]
caralluna	marclaporte: I wanted to join you the coming weekend	[17:56]
ChadDa3mon	I'm trying to go to the download section, and after a long wait, it's prompting me to download tiki-index.php something got boogered up	[17:56]
marclaporte	excellent!! but?	[17:56]
ricks99	db = more db overhead (which impacts performance), but makes it much easier to backup the site and is more secure	[17:57]
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caralluna	marclaporte: a combination of money issue and a very good friend of mine battling cancer for a couple of years now planning a social gettogether that same weekend ... he goes above everything for me now	[17:59]
marclaporte	caralluna: : I understand	[17:59]
caralluna	too bad, seems like London is the closest place to me for a Tikifest for a while (I live in Norway)	[18:00]
CIA-46	tikiwiki: 03ricks99 * r18111 10/branches/3.0/templates/tiki-install.tpl: [ENH]allow for manual installation - link to do page (at step 4), better explanation of htaccess file (step 6).	[18:00]
luminoso	http://doc.tikiwiki.org/ is down?	[18:02]
ChadDa3mon	yes, it appears that way been trying to say that for a few minutes, not sure who else to let know ;) seems to be working now :)	[18:02]
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marclaporte	caralluna: : next time :-)	[18:10]
ricks99	@luminoso: more discussion of db vs. directory: http://twbasics.keycontent.org/Configuring+Image+Galleries&bl=y <shameless plug>	[18:10]
luminoso	ty awesome guide after having image in databases, is possible to convert it to directory?	[18:10]
ricks99	tx y. i think there is an image moover	[18:12]
CIA-46	tikiwiki: 03ricks99 * r18112 10/branches/3.0/templates/tiki-admin-include-module.tpl: [FIX]removed empty div	[18:13]
caralluna	marclaporte: Yeah, lets hope so ... looking at the schedule it's gotta be Strasbourg ... but probably not, I really prefer my travelling by car in Norway :-)	[18:16]
marclaporte	caralluna: : do you code?	[18:25]
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caralluna	marclaporte: I did in my "early years" ... spent waaaay too much time coding on my calculators in school ;-) Now it's a little bit HTML, barely above "Hello World" level and some simple Unix / Linux shell for my own use	[18:27]
marclaporte	:-)	[18:28]
caralluna	I've wanted to learn something, PHP or python or something ... but then I rediscovered TW ;-)	[18:29]
marclaporte	TW is almost a language in itself	[18:30]
Tikiwiki\|bot	Welcome to the official Tikiwiki English Irc Channel. TikiWiki or better known as TW, is your Groupware/CMS (Content Management System) solution, you can get more infomation at http://info.tikiwiki.org/ .	[18:30]
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caralluna	marclaporte: Yeah it is :-) Seems that the bot is pretty eager to help :-P maybe it can fix some of the blocks for 3.0 release :-P	[18:31]
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.... (idle for 15mn)
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luminoso	tw b8 file upload for file galleries have a lot of problems..	[19:07]
Tikiwiki\|bot	Welcome to the official Tikiwiki English Irc Channel. TikiWiki or better known as TW, is your Groupware/CMS (Content Management System) solution, you can get more infomation at http://info.tikiwiki.org/ .	[19:07]
luminoso	errors, uploads that never finish, etc..	[19:08]
	wow b4 already out? any tips to upgrade from b3 to b4?	[19:13]
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ricks99	grab the tarball and run the installer. select "upgrade"	[19:15]
luminoso	on sourceforce the last one is b3 any tip about file upload that never finish?	[19:16]
ricks99	check your executution timeout (php.ini)	[19:16]
luminoso	max_execution_ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD max_execution_time ? ok. increased from 30 to 600	[19:17]
ricks99	check max upload size, too	[19:19]
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luminoso	ricks99, 200M are u a developer? a file upload progress bar would be great!	[19:20]
ricks99	on the wishlist (i think)	[19:21]
luminoso	nice :-D	[19:21]
SEWilco2	"File upload: YES. Step up to the bar during upload."	[19:21]
ricks99	may also need to increase max input time. pls see docs for details: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=Requirements+and+Setup&bl#_PHP	[19:21]
caralluna	SEWilco2: the progress bar? ;-)	[19:22]
ricks99	with ajax on, don't u get a "loading" prompt?	[19:22]
luminoso	i get an image only animated	[19:24]
ricks99	better than nothing (not much, tho)	[19:25]
luminoso	wow not it says that the file is duplicated but no file listed	[19:27]
ricks99	clear cache?	[19:27]
luminoso	wich one? tw or mine?	[19:27]
ricks99	try clearning tiki cache can u confirm if the file was actually uploaded (using db or file)	[19:27]
luminoso	i'm sorry but how do i clean tw cache	[19:29]
SEWilco2	Luminoso: In the Admin part of the menu is a menu option for tiki cache.	[19:30]
ricks99	Admin > Tiki Cache (pls see docs: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/System+Admin)	[19:31]
luminoso	ok something is really wrong. after cleaning all caches and uploading a file that i never tried before it says that is duplicate hum maybe i should install b4 first but on SF is only b3	[19:37]
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luminoso	humm	[19:40]
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ricks99	u can get latest from svn	[19:44]
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sm	how would i put wiki articles on the front page?	[19:46]
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caralluna	sm--: you could sert wiki as your tiki start page if that is what you mean sert=> set	[19:47]
sm--	i mean.. well if you dont mind taking a look..	[19:47]
ricks99	@sm: 2 ways...	[19:47]
sm--	although just know i installed tikiwiki last night so im still learning ;-)	[19:47]
ricks99	either set ARTICLES as your home page, or	[19:47]
sm--	www.worxpanel.net	[19:48]
caralluna	sm--: sure! link?	[19:48]
ricks99	use ARTICLES plugin on your wiki home page	[19:48]
sm--	im trying to put that features wiki article on the front page under the main article i managed to put a link to the wiki article in the menu but that was mainly for lack of being able to put the article on the front page like i wanted it	[19:48]
CIA-46	tikiwiki: 03ricks99 * r18113 10/branches/3.0/templates/tiki-plugin_help.tpl: [ENH]Use icons instead of text	[19:50]
ricks99	@sm: see docs: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/PluginArticles	[19:51]
caralluna	Interesting project you have going sm-- ;-)	[19:52]
sm--	thanks now if i could figure out how to work tikiwiki i would be all set! ;-) im usin tikiwiki cause i read somebody else say they used it for developing there project and they loved it so.. here i am ;-)	[19:52]
caralluna	That's why we're all here you know! ;-)	[19:53]
ricks99	@sm: try http://twbasics.keycontent.org <shameless plug>	[19:54]
sm--	;-) sm-- looks looks like what i was lookin for is it by chance your traffic reports starts with kansas city? ohh never mind i read that wrong ignore me been a long day lol	[19:55]
marclaporte	http://twbasics.keycontent.org is amazing!	[19:57]
ricks99	... if only i could get the VERSIONS plugin fixed.....	[20:01]
sm--	marclaporte svn browser! ;-)	[20:02]
marclaporte	hahahah	[20:05]
ricks99	bbl	[20:06]
marclaporte	sm-- do you want to code it? 1- Find open source packages which read SVN 2- Configure Tiki-Integrator to access	[20:06]
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........... (idle for 50mn)
sylvieg	back - is beta4 out? or does it need some test?	[21:06]
SEWilco2	Oh, good. getimagesize() works even if createimagefromstring() fails. Now to see if 3./4. needs my improvement.	[21:11]
marclaporte	SEWilco2 : & sylvieg I have plenty of ideas/bugs if you two have extra time duplicate plugins Image vs Img, Files vs File -> we need to figure this out	[21:19]
sylvieg	I am back on the module ajax bug - it will take me some time	[21:20]
marclaporte	ok is that a blocker for 3.0? 4 plugins completely crash tiki	[21:20]
sylvieg	for me yes - I am almost always obliged to uncheck ajax	[21:21]
marclaporte	ok	[21:21]
SEWilco2	marclaporte: You mean we have to only have 3 plugins? Gee, there are dozens. :-) I just got IMAGE to get the file size so it can emit a border of the right size. s/file size/image size/ I'm not familiar with "Files vs File". There are plugins for files of any type? Is Img really a plugin? It somehow works without the comma-separated list of parameters.	[21:22]
marclaporte	file is more for wiki page attach files for file gallery but I want to be sure this is what we want	[21:25]
sylvieg	.... yeh file is for wiki page - files is for fgal	[21:28]
SEWilco2	PluginFile not found. http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=PluginFile I haven't tried PluginFiles. I'm just using the filegal directory, but I can see why someone might want {FILES}.	[21:28]
sylvieg	file comes for the wiki syntax - files was written by me (when the smarty {} was not plugin) so perhpas me can merge - but it will be painful to change all the wiki page....	[21:30]
SEWilco2	(incidentally, we're about to try our filegal thumbnail in production tomorrow. Adds a thumbnail column which invokes plugins for the content.)	[21:31]
sylvieg	for img it is the same I think - img from smarty syntax, img form a previously existing plugin - and SEWilco2's image	[21:31]
SEWilco2	Of course IMAGE resembles img. I tried to make it upwardly compatible with img. If img would work with the same syntax as IMAGE, we could give a choice of the img code for small sites or the full IMAGE capabilities. I think I found that {IMG(src=http://example.com/a.jpg) /} does not work	[21:32]
	If IMAGE could work with the IMG syntax (without () and commas) then one could configure between the two, so there would be only one used on a site. But img has special handling someplace; I think in Smarty. It's been a while since I looked for it. SEWilco2 pokes marclaporte with a stick. sylvieg: Think he's still awake?	[21:40]
marclaporte	http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=All+plugins+in+3.0 http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=All+modules+in+3.0&bl=y just fyi ALL lots of work to do with plugins alias, image could = img	[21:42]
SEWilco2	Isn't there a PLUGINS plugin? Don't see one. Some false hits in the right column, such as "Wiki Plugins" is not a plugin. Does the plugin alias allow parameters without commas, like img can use?	[21:46]
marclaporte	probably just a page about plugins I think all plugins now can use without comma plugin helper builds them without commas	[21:47]
SEWilco2	Oh, I haven't created the page PluginIMAGE yet. Oops.	[21:49]
marclaporte	but I don';t think we want two Can your plugin supercede IMG? if so, let's do it if not, let's push to 3.1	[21:50]
SEWilco2	Probably. I tried to make it upwardly compatible. Might be differences such as in the exact align=/imalign= behavior.	[21:51]
marclaporte	that is not very reassuring	[21:51]
SEWilco2	I need to update 3 with the latest version, which is more IE6 compatible.	[21:51]
marclaporte	SEWilco2: thousands of people will upgrade to Tiki 3 most use images this is not something that we can just take chances	[21:52]
SEWilco2	I think img uses both CSS and HTML alignment, while IMAGE uses a single method.	[21:52]
CIA-46	tikiwiki: 03sylvieg * r18114 10/branches/3.0/modules/mod-shoutbox.php: [FIX]to avoid double declaration	[21:52]
sylvieg	fullscreen button is broken :-(	[21:54]
SEWilco2	IMAGE maps align=left and imalign=left to the same thing.	[21:54]
marclaporte	it's partially broken	[21:54]
SEWilco2	I just got new glasses. A partially broken fullscreen might make me ill. IMAGE uses CSS (the imalign technology) for left/right. Uses text-align:center for align=center (for IE6 compatibility and lack of center in CSS).	[21:55]
marclaporte	sylvieg: : can files supercede file plugin?	[22:00]
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sylvieg	no without work	[22:00]
SEWilco2	Maybe for 3.0 the plugin alias IMG->IMAGE should be tested and documented. People can test whether IMAGE looks good on their sites.	[22:01]
marclaporte	SEWilco2: : I don't understand your proposal	[22:01]
SEWilco2	So we don't have to force people with img to use IMAGE. We instead tell them how to configure to use IMAGE if they wish to use it.	[22:02]
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CIA-46	tikiwiki: 03sylvieg * r18115 10/branches/3.0/templates/tiki.tpl: [FIX]fullscreen: url like tiki-index.php?page=xxx must not haev the = escaped	[22:02]
SEWilco2	marklaporte: Didn't you say the plugin alias feature allows invoking another plugin under a different name? marclaporte: Can a site which uses img configure plugin alias to instead invoke IMAGE? I've been busy on 2.* and haven't tested plugin alias myself... and need to make a little mod to support alias parameters. I think I need to make IMAGE allow a parameter "mandatory=" to override internal values of "mandatory=". if(!empty(... I need to take a one hour break soon.	[22:02]
marclaporte	we can also push to 3.1 or 4.0 or put as experimental I don't know if alias can invoke existing plugin but that would be a good feature. A bit like a turbo mode switch between php4 and php5	[22:06]
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SEWilco2	I know that I suggested the plugin alias tool, for adding default parameters, so one can configure default behavior such as align=right. But I haven't checked just how the alias tool behaves. Maybe tonight.	[22:13]
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caralluna	would somebody just write a message with my nick in it? Just doing a bit of testing here ...	[22:14]
SEWilco2	caralluna: No, nobody will.	[22:15]
caralluna	SEWilco2: Yeah, I was afraid of that ;-) thanks :-)	[22:15]
SEWilco2	marclaporte: Looking at PluginAlias (which isn't really a plugin): Yes, it has an existing plugin as a target ("base").	[22:16]
marclaporte	PluginAlias wiki page?	[22:17]
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SEWilco2	marclaporte: But the doc PluginAlias doesn't say if an alias Name is checked before the list of plugins is checked. Whether real plugins have priority over alias names.	[22:18]
	marclaporte: lib/tikilib.php plugin_get_list() uses array_merge($real,$alias). So if non-numeric keys are used for plugins, aliases override existing plugins. Oops, that's only the list of plugins. marclaporte: Yeah, real plugins have priority. plugin_execute() tries function_exists() before considering an alias.	[22:24]
marclaporte	hmmm would be better for alias to have priority, no>?	[22:30]
SEWilco2	But that's not right either. I think that means one can't add default parameters to an existing plugin. So can't add "align=right" to img nor IMAGE. Yes, if alias has priority then both overriding and default parameters are possible. I don't understand the PluginAlias doc well enough yet to see whether parameters have priority. Oh, it didn't matter in current implementation.	[22:31]
caralluna	Under Look&Feel -> General -> Top Bar -> Menu ID, is it possible to display two or more menus there?	[22:34]
sylvieg	you can do custom code {menu id=...}	[22:35]
SEWilco2	marclaporte: I suspect plugin alias offers a choice whether parameters override user input, so already has parameter-level priority options. bbl	[22:37]
marclaporte	later	[22:38]
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marclaporte	sylvieg: : the inline edit plugin suggestion: how do I test that?	[22:44]
sylvieg	???	[22:44]
caralluna	sylvieg: Yeah, that sort of works, but doesn't do exactly what I want. If I do that they end up on two lines. I want several menus to display on the same line in the menu bar (i.e above Location)	[22:46]
sylvieg	css adjustment?	[22:51]
caralluna	would probably work, but I know nothing about css	[22:52]
marclaporte	sylvieg: : you wrote on svn list: "And what about putting the icon inline after the plugin?" I like that idea and would like to test	[22:58]
sylvieg	;-) I think it is a rollback will do tomorrow - need to advance on this ajax problem	[22:58]
	does somebody know why we complexify our life by using the xajax lib - I do not see any interest in using the layer...	[23:08]
marclaporte	xajax, mootools, jquery, prototype... too many!	[23:20]
caralluna	way past bedtime for me ... good night!	[23:29]
***	caralluna is now known as caralluna\|asleep	[23:29]
sylvieg	sylvieg will propose to replace the xajax lib with jquery feature.....	[23:32]
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marclaporte	http://socghop.appspot.com/org/home/google/gsoc2009/tikiwiki 4 projects!!! marclaporte suggests to ask Jonny to do that while Sylvie can fix other bugs	[23:48]

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