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   marclaporte: hi lindon!
   <br> how are you?
   lindon: hi marclaporte!
   <br> doing good, thank you
   <br> my login doesn't work anymore on the demo site you set up for me :(
   marclaporte: hehe
   <br> try admin/admin or admin/1234
   <br> it's a test/throwaway site
   <br> I wonder how the weirdness happened though
   <br> all the weird characters
   lindon: yes that was bizarre
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   lindon: i remember my clicks
   <br> so i may (or may not!) retrace my steps
   marclaporte: You have seriously increased my motivation with doc.tikiwiki.org
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   marclaporte: I think I have been working on it for like 20 hours during the last few days
   lindon: great to hear
   <br> one thing i was wondering
   <br> is the plan to replace admin home with magic admin?
   <br> i'm in the demo - thank you
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   marclaporte: magic is on hold
   <br> Now that Ricks99 has done amazing job on the admin panels, it reduces need for magic
   <br> I would still want to do so we can have quick search of admin setting.  Have an ajax select box. You type in a few letter and it lets you change a setting quikcly.
   lindon: sounds good
   <br> mainly wondering from a documentation perspective
   <br> whether to maintain admin panel pages or transition to magic
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   lindon: another question
   <br> what does "List of Url Parameters that should go in the path" do on the SEFURL admin page?
   marclaporte: whether to maintain admin panel pages or transition to magic -&gt; good question.   I think for now, we can focus on making each individual page/task/etc as good as possible. And then, once we are happy with that, perhaps a pattern will emerge
   <br> Some people want to read the doc end to end to see what Tiki can do
   <br> In other cases, they have an option somewhere in Tiki and they just clicked a link to find out more
   <br> admin panels change quite a bit
   <br> si it's tricky to maintain doc about them
   <br> List of Url Parameters that should go in the path: I don't know   sylvie or slj will know
   lindon: agree documentation on admin panels takes a lot of work to keep up to date
   <br> but it's also key documentation that users need help on
   <br> if magic is on hold, i'll concentrate on admin home panel documentation
   marclaporte: admin panels will move a bit more before 3.0 final
   <br> so you may want to wait until May 4th :-)
   <br> esp for screenshots
   lindon: good to know - will do
   marclaporte: so apart being blocked to delete 40 pages or so, do you need anything else to continue doing a great contribution?
   lindon: wish I could edit content templates
   <br> would eventually want to admin structures, but could also pose suggestions here instead
   marclaporte: ok, I added the perms to your group
   <br> structures, you already had
   lindon: you're right, i hadn't checked that in a while - thanks!
   <br> wanted to admin menus too
   <br> just to add to author resources for appropriate group
   luminoso: humm
   <br> when uploading an flv file the upload never ends
   <br> any idea about this?
   lindon: <u>marclaporte</u>: also categories and dynamic content
   <br> <u>marclaporte</u>: just noticing that i now have a developer menu
   marclaporte: yup
   lindon: may not need to mess with menus then
   <br> thanks!
   marclaporte: dev menu was not showing for your group
   lindon: got it
   marclaporte: 3.0 now has a perm to admin menu
   <br> before, only admins could
   <br> <u>lindon</u>: : I just added a whole bunch of admin perms  (file gallry, menu, etc)
   lindon: thanks man!
   <br> hopefully
   <br> one day we'll get this
   <br> to where you don't have to worry about the docs
   <br> and you can focus on the developer vision thing you do so well
   marclaporte: thank you!
   <br> uploading an flv file the upload never ends : on doc.tw.o or elsewhere?
   <br> you can deal with tags too
   lindon: how do you mean?
   marclaporte: about tags?
   <br> you now perms to delete tags if you see any
   <br> I cleanup quite a few earlier
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   lindon: okay i see that now
   <br> what kind of freetags are you getting rid of?
   marclaporte: just obvious errors
   <br> bots attemping to log in
   lindon: got it
   marclaporte: do you use full screen mode?
   lindon: rarely
   marclaporte: ok
   <br> So, once the cleanup is "done"  (at this rate, it should be very soon)
   <br> After, we should have a discussion about process
   <br> This seems inefficient: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/Documentation+Status+Tracker
   lindon: agree with that
   <br> good idea to discuss process
   marclaporte: this would include translators
   <br> I think we can have less structures
   <br> One general multilingual structure which has everything in English, and overrides with your language if page is available
   lindon: that does sound better for languages
   marclaporte: we could mini-structures with most important docs
   <br> 5-10 pages
   <br> small enough that it's resonable to maintain
   <br> ...
   <br> lots of cleanup here: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/WantedPages
   lindon: wow hadn't seen that one yet
   <br> the language ones probably go away if you get rid of the documantation status page for each one
   <br> was also thinking about plugins and modules
   <br> wondered if these could be documented via a tracker
   <br> instead of a page for each one
   <br> easier to maintain
   <br> might not be sufficient though
   marclaporte: documantation status page per lang : +1 to empy pages (or delete)
   <br> plugins &amp; modules: we could also have something that links with tiki source code.
   lindon: that's good
   <br> to encourage development
   <br> wanted pages: need to get away from documenting the world i think
   <br> too many general concepts, general definitions etc. wanted IMHO
   <br> too wikipedia
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   sm-: is there a module for an svn browser?
   <br> like the code activity on your main site?
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   mlaporte: sm-: can you elaborate?
   sm-: on the main site
   <br> on the left hand side.. the section.. "Code Activity"
   <br> with the svn browser
   <br> i am looking for exactly that
   mlaporte: ah
   <br> supplied by CIA.vc
   sm-: is it avaliable?
   mlaporte: http://dev.tikiwiki.org/wish1995  -&gt; It's on wishlist
   sm-: ;-(
   mlaporte: <u>related</u>: http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Software_Project
   sm-: i hope the 1995 isnt the year that wish list was made :-)
   mlaporte: hahahaha
   <br> <u>lindon</u>: yes, too much documenting the World
   <br> I think doc.tikiwiki.org needs to be more focused
   <br> and bug reports &amp; RFEs, and info for developers go to dev.tikiwiki.org
   <br> while community aspects and anything that doesn't fit elsewhere goes to tikiwiki.org
   sm-: ok what im wondering.. is how you joined after i asked me question and asked me to elaborate? ;-)
   mlaporte: irc.tikiwiki.org logs
   sm-: me i mean my and oh.. didnt know that was there
   <br> any kind of an eta on the svn browser?
   mlaporte: sm-:  I think Tiki is very close to being excellent platform for Software Project
   sm-: well thats why im trying it out.. i read a forum .. somebody posted there experience with tiki with there software project and he was very happy with it
   mlaporte: :-)
   <br> Here is something in the future to complete: http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Code+Review
   sm-: just .. its my first day with it so im having problems.. ill figure it all out im sure :-)
   mlaporte: hehe
   sm-: could you tell me.. what is this "tracker" module?
   <br> ohh i like that
   <br> ok.. how would i set it up so that certain things are in the menu?
   <br> like.. certain wiki articles?
   <br> for example.. "Features" i'd like it to be a wiki article but also be in the menu
   mlaporte: trackers are way to build a database, create forms &amp; reports
   <br> So you can have a bug tracker, issue tracker, etc.
   sm-: i found the menu setup yay!
   <br> im going to bed!
   mlaporte: later!
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   lindon: <u>mlaporte</u>: i blew up the demo again :(
   <br> clicked all 4 SEFURL options on the admin page
   <br> and then tried to go to articles home on the main menu
   <br> got all the characters again
   mlaporte: hehe
   <br> fyi, I started: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-pagehistory.php?page=Content+Creation+and+Management+Tools&amp;diff_style=htmldiff&amp;compare=Compare&amp;newver=0&amp;oldver=14&amp;tra_lang=ar
   <br> trying to reduce the number of wanted links
   lindon: ok, i'll start working on that too
   <br> clicking on a letter at the top of listpages page on the doc site
   <br> only brings up pages starting with that letter in lower case only
   mlaporte: ah
   <br> not good
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   lindon: off to bed - good night!
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   marclaporte: later!
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   luciash: polom
   marclaporte: polom
   luciash: hi marc :)
   marclaporte: how are you?
   CIA-46: tikiwiki: 03chibaguy * r18097 10/branches/3.0/styles/ (darkroom.css feb12.css strasa.css thenews.css): [FIX] Removed excess white space caused by switching article title from div to h2.
   luciash: <u>marclaporte</u>: great, and ya ? :)
   marclaporte: pretty good
   <br> lots of great progress on doc.tikiwiki.org
   <br> thanks to Lindon
   -: luciash starting open.ground business ;)
   luciash: yup, noticed, kewl :)
   <br> seems lots of ppl to come to tikifest london
   <br> it's mini-tikifest nomore
   <br> in number of participants ;)
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   luciash: wb gary :)
   chibaguy: thanks luciash
   <br> I have a plan, I would like your opinion.
   luciash: sure
   chibaguy: I was wondering what to do with tikinewt -- keep or move or kil....
   <br> But thought how about using it as test theme for importing layout.css?
   <br> low-risk way to introduce layout.css in branch 3, I think.
   <br> The other themes wouldn't be touched.
   <br> This way layout.css will be in the release, and I can have the (newer) mods.tw.o themes use it.
   <br> And I think it'll make things easier for other people with custom themes.
   luciash: i personally don't mind afa it doesn't break anything
   marclaporte: yay for tikifest london!
   chibaguy: I have a modified tikinewt.css which has its layout-type css removed.
   marclaporte: It's my turn to watch from home ;-)
   luciash: <u>marclaporte</u>: heheh
   chibaguy: It can replace the current branch 3 tikinewt. Plus I'll add styles/layout/layout.css.
   <br> I guess that's the best path for it.
   -: caralluna is having second thoughts ...
   chibaguy: Actually I have modified the other branch 3 theme stylesheets too, but don't want to risk introducing problems, so will wait to change them.
   <br> Yeah, marclaporte, I hope they'll put on a good show for us.
   luciash: first i thought it will be better to remove tikinewt from 3.0 to reduce work we need to keep fixing the themes included still...
   -: marclaporte thinks chibaguy was the best cameraman in the history of TikiFests
   chibaguy: Heh, thanks. It was fun.
   -: marclaporte thinks tikinewt doesn't look so good.
   marclaporte: But tikinewt with theme options and different colors, could be ok
   chibaguy: No, I don't think so either. But it can serve as a test for layout.css use.
   marclaporte: but we have little time
   luciash: on the other hand can you do it in trunk and include layout.css only to 3.0 ?
   <br> to have it ready there for your 3.0 mods themes ?
   chibaguy: That's true.
   luciash: with a note it's there for mods themes maybe
   <br> (when people wonder it's not used by any file)
   chibaguy: Doing the branch 3 stylesheet 'conversions' for layout.css gave me some clues about what should be in layout.css and what left in the theme css...
   <br> Actually layout.css also contains some default colors for things like wiki diff classes; nobody touches them much.
   luciash: yeah, it's good idea to separate padding, margins and basic layout CSS stuff from look and feel stuff (font sizes, families, colors, graphics)
   chibaguy: padding and margins are tricky, cause they can be for both/either layout/design, etc.
   <br> But this can be fine-tuned after it's in svn...
   luciash: yep, for these content usability neccesity colorings it's ok i think, because they can be overriden in theme css later then
   chibaguy: right
   <br> My idea is that transitions/ files will be unneeded because that info can go directly in layout.css.
   <br> Also the (to me) confusing admin option of which transition file to use, etc. can be removed.
   <br> marclaporte, I agree tikinewt with theme options, etc. could be ok. I moved the ones jonnyb made for tikineat to tikinewt's directory in my local install, and they work nicely.
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   luciash: <u>chibaguy</u>: well, sometimes ppl want to opt-out the use of transition css because it breaks or affects their custom theme in some way they don't like... that's why the transition css is optional
   caralluna: <u>chibaguy</u>: Transition files has always confused me too, still does
   luciash: so i wouldn't kill that preference completely in favor of having it all in layout.css by default where only overriding it would be option to fix
   <br> but maybe better way how to do it can be implemented
   <br> maybe if layout.css would be optional would be sufficient
   chibaguy: well, since layout.css is imported by theme stylesheets, these people would have the choice not to put the import line in their css file.
   luciash: what about having transition css classes and ids listed on tiki-edit_css.php somewhat with a question to add them to user edited custom css ?
   <br> ah, right, i thought layout.css will be included in template on top
   <br> but if you do it using @import then fine, it will not affect older themes
   chibaguy: that's true
   <br> about opting out of transitions stylesheets, that seems rather strange to me because a lot of 'necessary' classes, etc. get put in there...
   luciash: but still i believe the original purpose of transitions css was to serve ppl who upgrade the new *non-layout* specific classes easily without forcing them to manually edit css files
   <br> so the transition between versions will be easier for them
   chibaguy: that makes sense but then there is quite a risk of missing some classes if the person chooses not to use transitions/.
   luciash: imho it wasn't very well done though... the transition css should be optional by theme actually
   <br> yes, by default they're on, user can opt-out to not use the transition css if he/she prefers
   <br> (in case some oddities appear after upgrade)
   chibaguy: My feeling is that devs add things to transitions that they think are necessary, that they expect sites to use.
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   luciash: still it serves as a nice list of what classes and ids appeared between versions, though it doesn't list classes which were removed/replaced
   chibaguy: yes, it is good for that, but some things get added to theme stylesheets, so it's just a partial list.
   luciash: actually, in an ideal world, they should go to transition css file too if they're important and not only one theme specific
   chibaguy: Hm, I thought they should go to all theme stylesheets if they're important.
   <br> If they're important, why would they be optional?
   luciash: well, let me give you an example
   <br> user creates custom theme where some part is really customized a lot (e.g. logo at fixed position on right bottom scrolling with page scrolling)
   <br> then (imagine) in next Tiki version there's specified the logo should be always left in some circumstances (ad banner, etc.) and someone puts it in transition or your layout css
   <br> accidentally the user uses same id or class for it but with lower priority weight (e.g. uses only #logo instead of #siteheader #logo which is in the new tiki version layout css) and sudenly his theme is borked in some way
   <br> so the user could prefer not to use the transition/layout
   <br> i know it's not the best example, but it's the spirit of preserve environment and make it optional...
   <br> maybe i'm just thinking too much around the corner ;)
   chibaguy: Sure, every new release brings that kind of problem, with css or tpls or whatever, especially for highly customized themes. But turning off transitions will solve one...
   <br> problem but then all the other css in transitions isn't used either, so not really a good solution imho.
   <br> I think the person who can make a highly customized theme can adjust to new releases by editing css, etc.
   <br> and doesn't need an admin gui.
   <br> ... with large on/off switch.
   <br> Actually I did most themes/adaptations assuming transitions was not used. Then had problems when some transitions styling conflicted with my theme stylesheet.
   <br> ....because there was 'design' stuff in transitions (border specified, etc.)
   <br> Hopefully that's a rare case.
   <br> Same problem with 'design' inline css, for example when I was doing Darkroom there were lots of cases of bad contrast because inline css assumed a light-colored background.
   <br> But that's improving, too.
   luciash: that's the point of having option to switch them off but well, if it will be done better with layout.css +1 for simplify it and having no need to use transitions css
   chibaguy: it's good to get your views.
   <br> I tend to get one idea in my head and forget about other perspectives. ;-)
   luciash: np, it's normal, everybody does :)
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   marclaporte: 'night!
   <br> <u>all</u>: help needed!    http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Release30process#Blockers
   caralluna: help needed to fix them you mean?
   Tikiwiki|bot: Welcome to the official Tikiwiki English Irc Channel. TikiWiki or better known as TW, is your Groupware/CMS (Content Management System) solution, you can get more infomation at http://info.tikiwiki.org/ .
   caralluna: lol, Tikiwikibot is eager to  h e l p :-P
   spoonypjk: tell tikiwikibot to change the topic :)
   caralluna: I can't ... I just know what a bot is ... I know nothing about how you can tell it to do anything :-P
   chibaguy: Also a lot of things further down the page (quasi-blockers, etc.) really should be fixed before the release. A lot of regressions from Tiki 2 there.
   caralluna: but yeah, it's a bit outdated now
   chibaguy: IMHO actually more important than having new features working 100%.
   caralluna: <u>chibaguy</u>: hope I could help, unfortunately I don't know any php
   chibaguy: I know the feeling. ;-)
   caralluna: ;-)
   luciash: úhelp voice
   <br> oops :-)
   ***: ChanServ sets mode: +o luciash
   <br> luciash changes topic to: Welcome to #tikiwiki! - Just ask, don't ask to ask !!! - Don't paste code/errors here, use http://pastebin.com - IRC-logging at http://irc.tikiwiki.org - Say "!help" to get info from  TikiBot - Running Tiki 2.4 is very highly recommended and check out 3.0beta4 - Thanks and have fun!
   <br> ChanServ sets mode: -o luciash
   caralluna: <u>luciash</u>: good one :-)
   -: spoonypjk cheers luciash
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   CIA-46: tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18098 10/branches/3.0/lang/fr/language.php: [FIX] typo in a french translation
   <br> tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18099 10/branches/3.0/ (get_strings.php lib/setup/prefs.php):
   <br> tikiwiki: [MOD] get_strings: to add it to the release script, allow running
   <br> tikiwiki: get_strings.php on a checkout, without a tiki installation (no database). In
   <br> tikiwiki: this case, it uses default prefs from lib/setup/prefs.php which has also been
   <br> tikiwiki: changed to be called without tikilib if needed.
   <br> tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18100 10/branches/3.0/doc/devtools/release.php: [ENH] release: automatically update language.php files when running release.php
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   CIA-46: tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18101 10/branches/3.0/doc/devtools/release.php: [FIX] release script: fix commit message of the update of language.php files
   <br> tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18102 10/branches/3.0/lang/ (35 files in 35 dirs): [REL] Update language.php files for 3.0beta4
   <br> tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18103 10/branches/3.0/db/tiki-secdb_3.0_mysql.sql: [REL] SecDB for 3.0beta4
   <br> tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18104 10/branches/3.0/templates/tiki-install.tpl: [FIX] installer: missing tr for a string
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   CIA-46: tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18105 10/branches/3.0/lang/fr/language.php: french translations for last updates of the installer
   <br> tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18106 10/branches/3.0/ (changelog.txt copyright.txt): [REL] Preparing 3.0beta4 release
   <br> tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18107 10/branches/3.0/lang/fr/language.php: [REL] Update language.php files for 3.0beta4
   <br> tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18108 10/branches/3.0/db/tiki-secdb_3.0_mysql.sql: [REL] SecDB for 3.0beta4
   <br> tikiwiki: 03nyloth * r18109 10/branches/3.0/doc/devtools/release.php: [FIX] release script: remove temporary files and backup files of get_strings.php to avoid them in the secdb step
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   sm-: i need an svn browser!
   <br> ;-)
   SEWilco2: I am available to browse svn for an immodest fee.  :-)
   caralluna: lol
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   sm-: ..
   <br> not exactly what im lookin for
   <br> i mean like the module on the main site there.. the one titled "code activity"
   sylvieg: sm-: does this http://tikiwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tikiwiki/branches/3.0/ help?
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   RobertS: ahoi
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   caralluna: Ahoi
   Guest43730: ah:) hi caralluna
   caralluna: hiya :-)
   Guest43730: dunno why i get Guest-status after typed immediatly
   caralluna: yeah, I noticed that yesterday too
   Guest43730: may i bother u with a new question  :)?- you helped me yesterday pretty good
   caralluna: If you are incredibly lucky it's something I know something about ;-) Fire away ;-)
   Guest43730: its about images - they are to get into wiki-sites pretty complicated cause i have to type in the whole adress that i can see in the galary
   <br> it would be alot of easier to hav a choice to get images into my "posts" directly from my PC to the post
   <br> you got my problem?
   caralluna: well, there is a thing I don't know much about
   <br> but yeah, I know what you mean
   Guest43730: well np at all it works - i was looking for easier ways :P
   caralluna: I don't know of any, sorry
   Guest43730: have you installed your 3.0 already and does it work?
   caralluna: yeah and yeah :-)
   <br> www.hansrune.com is my main "production" site, works very well :-)
   Guest43730: great - do you know if i can stay with my personal changes and ma data when i want to update on a stable version3.0 later?
   <br> ah i'll have a look - mine is: www.sonnenmeister.eu
   caralluna: I don't have much experience about that, but the few times I tried it was between 3.0 betas - and that worked flawlessly
   Guest43730: ok - i just had a short look on your page - very nice - themes for vistors - pretty handsome
   caralluna: thanks :-)
   <br> it's not a very difficult thing to enable
   Guest43730: what is the aim of yours if there is one - do u think to built up something real?
   sm-: sylvieg not that i can see..
   <br> im talking about a module for tikiwiki that acts as an svn browser
   Guest43730: gimme a min cara ill try a relog
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   RobertS: re
   <br> re
   <br> trying to not get guest status :P
   caralluna: RobertS, just my personal homepage ... I'm into computers, gadgets, photos and cars ... so I guess that will be what it'll be about
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   caralluna: hmmm weird ...
   Guest61398: lol and guest again - what can this be - cookies or soemthing like this?
   <br> ic
   caralluna: no idea, sorry
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   Guest61398: u said your site is on a providers VPS - so u got no speed problems i guess
   <br> could u test out my site  - to see if its slow for you ?
   caralluna: well not that one ... that is @ my house on an ADSL
   Guest61398: :)) ok
   <br> ic - i just opened a lot of things under the hood - it was very slow - but worked
   caralluna: www.rettvest.org is my test site, that is on a VPS ... try tw.rettvest.org, tw2.rettvest.org, tw3.rettvest.org, tw4.rettvest.org
   <br> but the only access I have to that site from a clients perspective is through ssh - so it's not the best way to test speed
   <br> guess I could set up some kind of remote desktop-thing or a proxy, but I don't have the knowledge
   Guest61398: i was on tw4 - this was faster  maybe a little - id say - its hard to say
   caralluna: tw4 is running 4.0 of TW, so that's very early code
   <br> been having a lot of trouble inserting stuff into that database
   Guest61398: do u know where i can rename the database for my wiki - so i could take a backup first - make a new database - and restore my data on this new one?
   <br> to give my tiki the database's name was only at the install-proccess at beginning a possibility - where i can change my database-name in my tiki-wiki - any idea?
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   caralluna: hmm ... you'd have to rename it in TW through the installer I guess - and then the real database as well
   Guest61398: how to run the installer when its already runnning?
   caralluna: put tiki-installer.php on the end of the adress ... or was it tiki-install.php
   <br> then you'll have to remove a lock file, it will tell you which
   Guest61398: ah i got it - thx
   caralluna: :-)
   marclaporte: <u>caralluna</u>:  a new feature to automatically update Tikis from source was added to TRIM
   caralluna: <u>marclaporte</u>: for several tikis you mean?
   Guest61398: brb
   marclaporte: <u>caralluna</u>: : yes, several, and they update on a cron job
   caralluna: <u>marclaporte</u>: Thanks, but I prefer to do that manually ... I don't have *that* many ;-)
   <br> ... I think anyways ;-)  ...but I'll check it out :-)
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   marclaporte: :-)
   caralluna: I read about TRIM a while back ... concluded I didn't wanna use it ... but things are changing :-)
   marclaporte: it's getting better all the time
   caralluna: yeah, one of the things I love about it :-P
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   SEWilco2: What you need next to your TW workstation: Tiki head tissue box cover. http://www.amazon.com/Tiki-Head-Tissue-Box-Cover/dp/B0007U8MSA
   <br> Yeah, so it's a Moai, not a Tiki.  One shouldn't do that to a Tiki anyway.
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   chibaguy_: "Frequently Bought Together -- Customers buy this item with Odd Jobs: Portraits of Unusual Occupations"
   <br> "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought ...
   <br> ...Grow Dammit Garden Stone...
   <br> ..." oh, I won't list the rest. Too sad.
   -: SEWilco2 offers a tissue
   <br> chibaguy_ hesitantly accepts....
   <br> SEWilco2 stocks up with green tissues
   <br> chibaguy_ is relieved at least they aren't wet wipes....
   ChadDa3mon: This feels like a stupid question, but where in the world can I enable plugins in 3.X?
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   ChadDa3mon: guess it was a stupid question :/
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   chibaguy_: ChadDa3mon, tiki-admin.php?page=textarea
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   chibaguy_: Not a stupid question; seems like I generally find what I'm looking for at Admin Textarea.
   ChadDa3mon: ....how did I miss this :(
   chibaguy_: (ok, in the general area of wiki-related prefs, etc.)
   ChadDa3mon: Text Area was the winner
   chibaguy_: yesss
   ChadDa3mon: I could swear I went through every tab of every option
   -: chibaguy_ just successfully ftp'ed up and installed tw 3.0beta4....
   ChadDa3mon: did that just come out in the last hour? I tried the "check for updates" thing earlier and it said I was up to date
   marclaporte: yes, Beta4 is fresh
   chibaguy_: There was a message on the dev mailing list that tarballs are ready for testing.
   <br> Shoutbox is still broken.
   <br> ( http://mods.tikiwiki.org/tikiwiki-3.0.prebeta4.tar.bz2 )
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   chibaguy_: (well, I guess the release of a beta raises my expectations, but of course the list of bugs still to be squashed hasn't magically disappeared.)
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   caralluna: My site has been saying it was running beta4 for some time now ...?
   <br> and I am running 3.0 svn
   ChadDa3mon: Is there a release notes somewhere on 4?
   chibaguy_: There's changelot.txt in the package. Is that what you mean?
   <br> er, changelog.txt
   <br> changelot is the description, not the name, I guess. ;-)
   caralluna: changelot should be the correct name ;-)
   chibaguy_: :-)
   ChadDa3mon: heh
   <br> yea, I'm downloading it now, I'll look at the file
   <br> was trying to find something online
   chibaguy_: http://zukakakina.com/tw3prebeta4/changelog.txt if you want to read now.
   ChadDa3mon: excellent, thanks
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   chibaguy_: g'night all
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   ricks99: woo hoo. rick is back :)
   -: marclaporte yay!
   marclaporte: <u>ricks99</u>:  we need you!
   ricks99: gotta unpack first :)
   marclaporte: do you have a bit of time?
   -: marclaporte is unpacking Beta4 :-)
   ricks99: beta4. gee i'm a bit behind -- too busy unpacking suitcases
   <br> saw ur email wrt user prefs... thought they were on their own admin panel now
   marclaporte: maybe they are, I just didn't see them :-)
   ricks99: off to update from svn
   <br> branches still the source for 3.0?
   marclaporte: y
   ricks99: source of the tarball, i mean?
   <br> k
   marclaporte: yes
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   marclaporte: <u>ricks99</u>: : can you look at? http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Release30process#Installer
   <br> <u>ricks99</u>: alos, in svn, notice how I tweaked wiki help
   ricks99: still dont like the giant red ( ? )
   <br> looks like SEARCH to me
   marclaporte: +1 to change big red icon
   <br> it was never meant to be final
   <br> but many temporary things can linger for a long time :-)
   ricks99: gettng close to 'final' tho....
   <br> at least the admin pages look pretty :)
   marclaporte: yes they do
   <br> I moved a few more things around
   ricks99: some install blockers look easy to do
   marclaporte: yup
   <br> The edit help would use some WYSIWYCA  (ex.: remove doc about cookie if cookies are off)
   caralluna: Are there any plans of revamping the menu creation / reorganization system?
   marclaporte: <u>caralluna</u>:  making menus in profiles.tikiwiki.org can be quicker than via interface
   <br> I would like to see better navigation.
   <br> ex.: use structures as menu
   caralluna: uhm .. structures?
   marclaporte: strctures make a tree from wiki pages
   <br> #1 on list: http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Menu#Open
   <br> <u>caralluna</u>: : what do you have in mind?
   caralluna: I just find that it could probably have been easier to create menu structure
   marclaporte: yeah, lots of clicking around...
   caralluna: f ex what about something like inputting it into a spreadsheet and then importing it ...
   ricks99: menus r great if the structure is static, otherwise dynamiclly created menus from wiki structures would b gr8
   caralluna: wait, that is possible, right?
   <br> importing I mean
   marclaporte: I think so
   caralluna: Or maybe some kind of click'n'drag thing?
   marclaporte: that would be nice for structures as well
   caralluna: on the other hand, the lack of click'n'drag stuff was one of the things that made TW interesting for me in the first place :-P
   luminoso: what is the best? storing images on database or in directory?
   caralluna: but that was in the end of 1.8, so I guess I've changed too :-D
   marclaporte: <u>caralluna</u>: why?
   caralluna: I've always been sort of minimalistic about webstuff ... but that has somewhat changed lately
   <br> now the features, especially the trackers and you guys are what got me back ;-)
   marclaporte: <u>caralluna</u>: so you are an "us" :-)
   caralluna: Yeah, it's gotta be extreme to get me away now ;-)
   ChadDa3mon: Did something happen with doc.tikiwiki.org?
   ricks99: @luminoso: depends....
   marclaporte: amette is aware of doc.
   luminoso: ricks99, on what?
   <br> dos database compress jpegs?
   ricks99: @lsee docs for discussion of +/- of each
   caralluna: <u>marclaporte</u>: I wanted to join you the coming weekend
   ChadDa3mon: I'm trying to go to the download section, and after a long wait, it's prompting me to download tiki-index.php
   <br> something got boogered up
   marclaporte: excellent!!
   <br> but?
   ricks99: db = more db overhead (which impacts performance), but makes it much easier to backup the site and is more secure
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   caralluna: <u>marclaporte</u>: a combination of money issue and a very good friend of mine battling cancer for a couple of years now planning a social gettogether that same weekend ... he goes above everything for me now
   marclaporte: <u>caralluna</u>: : I understand
   caralluna: too bad, seems like London is the closest place to me for a Tikifest for a while (I live in Norway)
   CIA-46: tikiwiki: 03ricks99 * r18111 10/branches/3.0/templates/tiki-install.tpl: [ENH]allow for manual installation - link to do page (at step 4), better explanation of htaccess file (step 6).
   luminoso: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/ is down?
   ChadDa3mon: yes, it appears that way
   <br> been trying to say that for a few minutes, not sure who else to let know ;)
   <br> seems to be working now :)
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   marclaporte: <u>caralluna</u>: : next time :-)
   ricks99: @luminoso: more discussion of db vs. directory: http://twbasics.keycontent.org/Configuring+Image+Galleries&amp;bl=y  &lt;shameless plug&gt;
   luminoso: ty
   <br> awesome guide
   <br> after having image in databases, is possible to convert it to directory?
   ricks99: tx
   <br> y. i think there is an image moover
   CIA-46: tikiwiki: 03ricks99 * r18112 10/branches/3.0/templates/tiki-admin-include-module.tpl: [FIX]removed empty div
   caralluna: <u>marclaporte</u>: Yeah, lets hope so ... looking at the schedule it's gotta be Strasbourg ... but probably not, I really prefer my travelling by car in Norway :-)
   marclaporte: <u>caralluna</u>: : do you code?
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   caralluna: <u>marclaporte</u>: I did in my "early years" ... spent waaaay too much time coding on my calculators in school ;-) Now it's a little bit HTML, barely above "Hello World" level and some simple Unix / Linux shell for my own use
   marclaporte: :-)
   caralluna: I've wanted to learn something, PHP or python or something ... but then I rediscovered TW ;-)
   marclaporte: TW is almost a language in itself
   Tikiwiki|bot: Welcome to the official Tikiwiki English Irc Channel. TikiWiki or better known as TW, is your Groupware/CMS (Content Management System) solution, you can get more infomation at http://info.tikiwiki.org/ .
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   caralluna: <u>marclaporte</u>: Yeah it is :-)
   <br> Seems that the bot is pretty eager to help :-P
   <br> maybe it can fix some of the blocks for 3.0 release :-P
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   luminoso: tw b8 file upload for file galleries have a lot of problems..
   Tikiwiki|bot: Welcome to the official Tikiwiki English Irc Channel. TikiWiki or better known as TW, is your Groupware/CMS (Content Management System) solution, you can get more infomation at http://info.tikiwiki.org/ .
   luminoso: errors, uploads that never finish, etc..
   <br> wow b4 already out?
   <br> any tips to upgrade from b3 to b4?
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   ricks99: grab the tarball and run the installer. select "upgrade"
   luminoso: on sourceforce the last one is b3
   <br> any tip about file upload that never finish?
   ricks99: check your executution timeout (php.ini)
   luminoso: max_execution_ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD
   <br> max_execution_time ?
   <br> ok. increased from 30 to 600
   ricks99: check max upload size, too
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   luminoso: ricks99, 200M
   <br> are u a developer?
   <br> a file upload progress bar would be great!
   ricks99: on the wishlist (i think)
   luminoso: nice :-D
   SEWilco2: "File upload: YES.  Step up to the bar during upload."
   ricks99: may also need to increase max input time.
   <br> pls see docs for details: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=Requirements+and+Setup&amp;bl#_PHP
   caralluna: <u>SEWilco2</u>:  the progress bar? ;-)
   ricks99: with ajax on, don't u get a "loading" prompt?
   luminoso: i get an image only
   <br> animated
   ricks99: better than nothing (not much, tho)
   luminoso: wow not it says that the file is duplicated
   <br> but no file listed
   ricks99: clear cache?
   luminoso: wich one? tw or mine?
   ricks99: try clearning tiki cache
   <br> can u confirm if the file was actually uploaded (using db or file)
   luminoso: i'm sorry but how do i clean tw cache
   SEWilco2: <u>Luminoso</u>: In the Admin part of the menu is a menu option for tiki cache.
   ricks99: Admin &gt; Tiki Cache (pls see docs: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/System+Admin)
   luminoso: ok something is really wrong. after cleaning all caches and uploading a file that i never tried before it says that is duplicate
   <br> hum
   <br> maybe i should install b4 first
   <br> but on SF is only b3
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   luminoso: humm
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   ricks99: u can get latest from svn
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   sm: how would i put wiki articles on the front page?
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   caralluna: sm--: you could sert wiki as your tiki start page if that is what you mean
   <br> sert=&gt; set
   sm--: i mean.. well if you dont mind taking a look..
   ricks99: @sm: 2 ways...
   sm--: although just know i installed tikiwiki last night so im still learning ;-)
   ricks99: either set ARTICLES as your home page, or
   sm--: www.worxpanel.net
   caralluna: sm--:  sure! link?
   ricks99: use ARTICLES plugin on your wiki home page
   sm--: im trying to put that features wiki article on the front page under the main article
   <br> i managed to put a link to the wiki article in the menu but that was mainly for lack of being able to put the article on the front page like i wanted it
   CIA-46: tikiwiki: 03ricks99 * r18113 10/branches/3.0/templates/tiki-plugin_help.tpl: [ENH]Use icons instead of text
   ricks99: @sm: see docs: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/PluginArticles
   caralluna: Interesting project you have going sm-- ;-)
   sm--: thanks
   <br> now if i could figure out how to work tikiwiki i would be all set! ;-)
   <br> im usin tikiwiki cause i read somebody else say they used it for developing there project and they loved it so.. here i am ;-)
   caralluna: That's why we're all here you know! ;-)
   ricks99: @sm: try http://twbasics.keycontent.org &lt;shameless plug&gt;
   sm--: ;-)
   -: sm-- looks
   sm--: looks like what i was lookin for
   <br> is it by chance your traffic reports starts with kansas city?
   <br> ohh never mind i read that wrong
   <br> ignore me been a long day lol
   marclaporte: http://twbasics.keycontent.org is amazing!
   ricks99: ... if only i could get the VERSIONS plugin fixed.....
   sm--: marclaporte svn browser! ;-)
   marclaporte: hahahah
   ricks99: bbl
   marclaporte: sm--   do  you want to code it?
   <br> 1- Find open source packages which read SVN
   <br> 2- Configure Tiki-Integrator to access
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   sylvieg: back - is beta4 out? or does it need some test?
   SEWilco2: Oh, good.  getimagesize() works even if createimagefromstring() fails.  Now to see if 3.*/4.* needs my improvement.
   marclaporte: SEWilco2 : &amp; sylvieg I have plenty of ideas/bugs if you two have extra time
   <br> duplicate plugins  Image vs Img, Files vs File   -&gt; we need to figure this out
   sylvieg: I am back on the module ajax bug - it will take me some time
   marclaporte: ok
   <br> is that a blocker for 3.0?
   <br> 4 plugins completely crash tiki
   sylvieg: for me yes - I am almost always obliged to uncheck ajax
   marclaporte: ok
   SEWilco2: <u>marclaporte</u>: You mean we have to only have 3 plugins?  Gee, there are dozens. :-)
   <br> I just got IMAGE to get the file size so it can emit a border of the right size.
   <br> s/file size/image size/
   <br> I'm not familiar with "Files vs File".  There are plugins for files of any type?
   <br> Is Img really a plugin?  It somehow works without the comma-separated list of parameters.
   marclaporte: file is more for wiki page attach
   <br> files for file gallery
   <br> but I want to be sure this is what we want
   sylvieg: .... yeh file is for wiki page - files is for fgal
   SEWilco2: PluginFile not found. http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=PluginFile
   <br> I haven't tried PluginFiles.  I'm just using the filegal directory, but I can see why someone might want {FILES}.
   sylvieg: file comes for the wiki syntax - files was written by me (when the smarty {} was not plugin)
   <br> so perhpas me can merge - but it will be painful to change all the wiki page....
   SEWilco2: (incidentally, we're about to try our filegal thumbnail in production tomorrow.  Adds a thumbnail column which invokes plugins for the content.)
   sylvieg: for img it is the same I think - img from smarty syntax, img form a previously existing plugin - and SEWilco2's image
   SEWilco2: Of course IMAGE resembles img.  I tried to make it upwardly compatible with img.
   <br> If img would work with the same syntax as IMAGE, we could give a choice of the img code for small sites or the full IMAGE capabilities.
   <br> I think I found that {IMG(src=http://example.com/a.jpg) /} does not work
   <br> If IMAGE could work with the IMG syntax (without () and commas) then one could configure between the two, so there would be only one used on a site.
   <br> But img has special handling someplace; I think in Smarty.  It's been a while since I looked for it.
   -: SEWilco2 pokes marclaporte with a stick.
   SEWilco2: <u>sylvieg</u>: Think he's still awake?
   marclaporte: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=All+plugins+in+3.0
   <br> http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=All+modules+in+3.0&amp;bl=y
   <br> just fyi ALL
   <br> lots of work to do
   <br> with plugins alias, image could = img
   SEWilco2: Isn't there a PLUGINS plugin?  Don't see one.  Some false hits in the right column, such as "Wiki Plugins" is not a plugin.
   <br> Does the plugin alias allow parameters without commas, like img can use?
   marclaporte: probably just a page about plugins
   <br> I think all plugins now can use without comma
   <br> plugin helper builds them without commas
   SEWilco2: Oh, I haven't created the page PluginIMAGE yet.  Oops.
   marclaporte: but I don';t think we want two
   <br> Can your plugin supercede IMG?
   <br> if so, let's do it
   <br> if not, let's push to 3.1
   SEWilco2: Probably.  I tried to make it upwardly compatible.  Might be differences such as in the exact align=/imalign= behavior.
   marclaporte: that is not very reassuring
   SEWilco2: I need to update 3 with the latest version, which is more IE6 compatible.
   marclaporte: <u>SEWilco2</u>:  thousands of people will upgrade to Tiki 3
   <br> most use images
   <br> this is not something that we can just take chances
   SEWilco2: I think img uses both CSS and HTML alignment, while IMAGE uses a single method.
   CIA-46: tikiwiki: 03sylvieg * r18114 10/branches/3.0/modules/mod-shoutbox.php: [FIX]to avoid double declaration
   sylvieg: fullscreen button is broken :-(
   SEWilco2: IMAGE maps align=left and imalign=left to the same thing.
   marclaporte: it's partially broken
   SEWilco2: I just got new glasses.  A partially broken fullscreen might make me ill.
   <br> IMAGE uses CSS (the imalign technology) for left/right.  Uses text-align:center for align=center (for IE6 compatibility and lack of center in CSS).
   marclaporte: <u>sylvieg</u>: : can files supercede file  plugin?
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   sylvieg: no without work
   SEWilco2: Maybe for 3.0 the plugin alias IMG-&gt;IMAGE should be tested and documented.  People can test whether IMAGE looks good on their sites.
   marclaporte: <u>SEWilco2</u>: : I don't understand your proposal
   SEWilco2: So we don't have to force people with img to use IMAGE.  We instead tell them how to configure to use IMAGE if they wish to use it.
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   CIA-46: tikiwiki: 03sylvieg * r18115 10/branches/3.0/templates/tiki.tpl: [FIX]fullscreen: url like tiki-index.php?page=xxx must not haev the = escaped
   SEWilco2: <u>marklaporte</u>: Didn't you say the plugin alias feature allows invoking another plugin under a different name?
   <br> <u>marclaporte</u>: Can a site which uses img configure plugin alias to instead invoke IMAGE?
   <br> I've been busy on 2.* and haven't tested plugin alias myself... and need to make a little mod to support alias parameters.
   <br> I think I need to make IMAGE allow a parameter "mandatory=" to override internal values of "mandatory=".  if(!empty(...
   <br> I need to take a one hour break soon.
   marclaporte: we can also push to 3.1 or 4.0
   <br> or put as experimental
   <br> I don't know if alias can invoke existing plugin
   <br> but that would be a good feature.  A bit like a turbo mode
   <br> switch between php4 and php5
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   SEWilco2: I know that I suggested the plugin alias tool, for adding default parameters, so one can configure default behavior such as align=right.
   <br> But I haven't checked just how the alias tool behaves.  Maybe tonight.
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   caralluna: would somebody just write a message with my nick in it? Just doing a bit of testing here ...
   SEWilco2: <u>caralluna</u>: No, nobody will.
   caralluna: <u>SEWilco2</u>: Yeah, I was afraid of that ;-)
   <br> thanks :-)
   SEWilco2: <u>marclaporte</u>: Looking at PluginAlias (which isn't really a plugin): Yes, it has an existing plugin as a target ("base").
   marclaporte: PluginAlias wiki page?
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   SEWilco2: <u>marclaporte</u>: But the doc PluginAlias doesn't say if an alias Name is checked before the list of plugins is checked.  Whether real plugins have priority over alias names.
   <br> <u>marclaporte</u>: lib/tikilib.php plugin_get_list() uses array_merge($real,$alias).  So if non-numeric keys are used for plugins, aliases override existing plugins.
   <br> Oops, that's only the list of plugins.
   <br> <u>marclaporte</u>: Yeah, real plugins have priority.  plugin_execute() tries function_exists() before considering an alias.
   marclaporte: hmmm
   <br> would be better for alias to have priority, no&gt;?
   SEWilco2: But that's not right either.  I think that means one can't add default parameters to an existing plugin. So can't add "align=right" to img nor IMAGE.
   <br> Yes, if alias has priority then both overriding and default parameters are possible.
   <br> I don't understand the PluginAlias doc well enough yet to see whether parameters have priority.  Oh, it didn't matter in current implementation.
   caralluna: Under Look&amp;Feel -&gt; General -&gt; Top Bar -&gt; Menu ID, is it possible to display two or more menus there?
   sylvieg: you can do custom code {menu id=...}
   SEWilco2: <u>marclaporte</u>: I suspect plugin alias offers a choice whether parameters override user input, so already has parameter-level priority options.
   <br> bbl
   marclaporte: later
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   marclaporte: <u>sylvieg</u>: : the inline edit plugin suggestion: how do I test that?
   sylvieg: ???
   caralluna: <u>sylvieg</u>: Yeah, that sort of works, but doesn't do exactly what I want. If I do that they end up on two lines. I want several menus to display on the same line in the menu bar  (i.e above Location)
   sylvieg: css adjustment?
   caralluna: would probably work, but I know nothing about css
   marclaporte: <u>sylvieg</u>: : you wrote on svn list: "And what about putting the icon inline after the plugin?"
   <br> I like that idea and would like to test
   sylvieg: ;-) I think it is a rollback
   <br> will do tomorrow - need to advance on this ajax problem
   <br> does somebody know why we complexify our life by using the xajax lib - I do not see any interest in using the layer...
   marclaporte: xajax, mootools, jquery, prototype...
   <br> too many!
   caralluna: way past bedtime for me ... good night!
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   -: sylvieg will propose to replace the xajax lib with jquery feature.....
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   marclaporte: http://socghop.appspot.com/org/home/google/gsoc2009/tikiwiki
   <br> 4 projects!!!
   -: marclaporte suggests to ask Jonny to do that while Sylvie can fix other bugs