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dabright has joined #tikiwiki dabright: Other than it just hasn't been implemented yet, is there any reason that file gallery descriptions couldn't or shouldn't be made wiki-parsable? Tiki|bot: New Forum Posts: Customizing email notifications - http://tiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?forumId=4&comments_parentId=40109 luciash2: dabright, i think they could (i see no reason) CIA-37: tikiwiki: 03ricks99 * r31918 10/branches/proposals/6.x/templates/tiki-edit_blog.tpl: [FIX] fixed the skinny 1st column issue on the General tab. Still needs work, should remove all tables and use div layouts from admin panels instead. ***: dabright has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)
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ChanServ sets mode: +o chibaguy garethmcc: greetings chiba
bbiab ***: garethmcc has left chibaguy: rr, sorry, wasn't paying attention. -: chibaguy needs to turn up irc client activity signal, somehow. ***: garethmcc has joined #tikiwiki
jonnyb has joined #tikiwiki garethmcc: wonder if someone could answer me a quick layout question in tiki files? what is the tab indent size?
pfft nvm silly question
so used to working with space indents >.< chibaguy: hi garethmcc, http://dev.tiki.org/DevTips might be helpful; I'm not sure if indent is mentioned. garethmcc: hey chiba
i read that but it isnt except for saying that tiki uses tab indetns not spaces
threfore size of indent is unimportant .. a tab is a tab whether my IDE makes it 1, 2, 4 or 8 only I see that size of indent
is php4 support important to tiki? chibaguy: No, afaik it isn't.
I think php 5 is a requirement.
http://doc.tiki.org/Requirements#PHP garethmcc: eventually found it after going release notes hehe chibaguy: :-)
Is there something in particular you're interested in coding in Tiki? garethmcc: kind of just looking around ... was contemplating adding value by just improvements overall and not specifically a feature
for example I noticed that class files seem to still use the PHP4 style of object method definition with no public, private or protected settings
hence my question about php version requirement :) chibaguy: I see. I'm not that familiar with PHP but imagine there's definitely room for improvement.
Did you get svn commit access yet? garethmcc: not yet
I just pulled latest trunk anonymously
time to grab some lunch :) chibaguy: OK. garethmcc: so what is your "role" in tiki then chiba? chibaguy: Mostly I work on themes (visual skins, etc.) and usability. I've been around long enough to bubble up to project admin.
So I can do the induction ceremony whenever you're ready (takes about 30 sec.) garethmcc: give me a minute just nuking up some leftover chicken :) chibaguy: sure garethmcc: well all set ... -: garethmcc is slightly intrigued chibaguy: Actually it's very simple, but it's kinda neat to think of it as a ceremony rather than just a cold admin process.
The ceremony has three steps.
Step One is already done (you are registered at sourceforge). -: chibaguy belatedly pulls on the ceremonial robe and hat. garethmcc: suits you
:P chibaguy: Step Two: have you read and do you agree to abide by Tiki's 3 Rules (http://dev.tiki.org/3rules)
:-) garethmcc: Yup, those are the rules all my coding lives by chibaguy: OK, then, on to Step Three: your sourceforge username is garethmcc? garethmcc: yes it is -: chibaguy opens the dusty tome that is Tiki's sourceforge admin pages...
chibaguy enters the name of garethmcc. chibaguy: OK, you're in. :-) -: chibaguy pops open the bubbly and pours.
garethmcc bows to the applause of the audience garethmcc: Thank you very much :) chibaguy: sometimes there is actually an audience.
You're welcome. garethmcc: i guess its too early on a saturday morning for the US crowd hehe chibaguy: yep.
where are you located? garethmcc: south africa chibaguy: oh, new territory.
I'm in Chiba, Japan. garethmcc: must be getting into late afternoon for you now chibaguy: ah, it's about 8 in the evening. garethmcc: not that many europena folks involved with tiki? chibaguy: actually quite a few.
active contributors in France, Spain, Germany, Czech Republic that I recall offhand. garethmcc: bet I'm the first African :P chibaguy: Yep, as far as I know. -: chibaguy ponders an African TikiFest... garethmcc: sounds like a good idea .. I'm sure there are tiki users over here
and for foreigners south africa is dirt cheap to visit chibaguy: :-) ***: sylvieg has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)
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ChanServ sets mode: +o marclaporte marclaporte: polom
hi garethmcc
welcome to the community :-) ***: GillesM has joined #tikiwiki marclaporte: garethmcc : are you in the USA? http://tiki.org/TikiFestBoston7 chibaguy: marclaporte: garathmcc is in south africa. jonnyb: polom-end garethmcc: hi marc jonnyb: hi chibaguy & marclaporte - did good things yesterday on the modules garethmcc: sorry had to drop everything and go taxi the fiance around a bit chibaguy: was that a polom closing tag? jonnyb: polom-end for the week-end really
not </polom>
:) chibaguy: I know that feeling, garethmcc - been married 25 years and still taxiing.
;-)
jonnyb, nice. I'll have a look again. jonnyb: i also made a page on dev.t.o - https://dev.tiki.org/Modules+Revamp
ah, i see you spotted it! :) chibaguy: yep, made a very minor contribution. ;-)
it's good to keep up the documentation on this. It'll be a pretty radical change, for sure, and the more info the better. jonnyb: that's what i was thinking
i'll need to do a mail to the devels list before merging back and it should probably also be sent more widely via the forums etc
i need to do the bottom bar migration script, and the sitemycode to user modules then i think it's ready
do you have a list (or know) which prefs contain smarty code and so could be made into a UM? marclaporte: will menus be a module?
It doesn't add much value to put a menu in a module to use jonnyb: it's already a module in the exp branch marclaporte: if there was a menu module, it could have the menu params (vertical, horizontal, etc.)
awesome jonnyb: exacto
was a 20 minute job! :)
amazing we didn't have one before... marclaporte: One thing I will use in module revamp is switch language module, which I like having at the top jonnyb: indeed - that works
during coding last night i had an error in my code and managed to wipe out all my modules... only took a few minutes to put them all back! :)
and it's actually quite fun now!
btw marclaporte - demo.t.o seemed unhappy last night - any ideas? marclaporte: yeah!
it's not happy with trunk
that server has MySQL4 chibaguy: For ease of upgrading, if there is a tiki-top module, it can be given the css properties that #tiki-top has now, and it would be trivial to change #tiki-top to .tiki-top in css files. jonnyb: yes, did that last night chibaguy - added menu_id and menu_class to the menu module
works fine with the top menu ***: kiilo has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) jonnyb: bleh marclaporte - should we upgrade it? (min spec for 7 is mysql 5 surely?) chibaguy: I'm thinking about how to target the menu for theme design purposes. If the old name (tiki-top) is used, there is continuity. jonnyb: i don't think it should be an id - you might want the same thing at the bottom for instance chibaguy: I don't know how it would work to try to make themes' site header areas if there is no consistency about menu-area names, etc. jonnyb: but for legacy purposes it's now possible chibaguy: right, I think it should be a class - one difference re: tiki 6.
so change #tiki-top to .tiki-top in stylesheets. jonnyb: each module does have a fixed class (box-module_name) marclaporte: It's a production server with many customers, so I am not in a mood for an upgrade (no time to deal with issues) jonnyb: and the containers are still the same (#header, #left_modules etc) chibaguy: could there be a tiki-top module by default, activated as the last module in the top modules area? jonnyb: there is on fresh install, and upgrades, yes chibaguy: (well, strictly speaking, it doesn't have to be named tiki-top, except for legacy reasons) -: jonnyb remembers he didn't actually add that to tiki.sql chibaguy: sounds good.
I think the 6>7 upgrades should be pretty smooth, re themes. jonnyb: it'll be the heavily customised ones that will feel the pain chibaguy: Right. Maybe some creative thinking about how to do with modules what was done it tpls, I imagine.
it > in
I have a few themes that will be good edge cases. Tiki|bot: New Forum Posts: When images fail to appear - http://tiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?forumId=4&comments_parentId=40113 chibaguy: About the CSS (overall), I think it will be good to have reset rules (if not a reset.css), and also maybe consider a grid system for consistent widths. garethmcc: you thinking blueprint? chibaguy: Not necessarily. I want to evaluate different ones. jonnyb: as long as we can keep fluid layouts too, sounds ok to me garethmcc: we have been using blueprint at work and its very good
theres a fixed width version and a liquid one chibaguy: Yes, it's one that's often mentioned. jonnyb: (if someone has the spare days to convert everything - i don't) garethmcc: never been a though to use an mvc framework for tiki? just curious jonnyb: we need to be realistic as to what can be really delivered for Tiki 7 - changing layout might be one straw too many garethmcc: true jonnyb: hi garethmcc - been reading your mails to devels chibaguy: Funny, I just came across the term mvc yesterday (not a tech guy by trade).
jonnyb, right. this (grid system) is rather preliminary kind of thinking. garethmcc: essentially mvc just seperates business logic from design and the Controller layer ties the two together jonnyb: i had similar thought for my first few years with tiki - that kind of "rewriting the whole thing properly" stuff fades away after a while :P garethmcc: it doesn't have to happen overnight hehe .. the best way to do it is just to start
one file at a time jonnyb: what works better here is gradual migration - so if we can bit by bit start to do that... excatly garethmcc: converting the tiki codebase to an mvc framework is a MASSIVE undertaking jonnyb: have you used the Zend framework? garethmcc: im a symfony guy mostly jonnyb: looks like best for us (as it's already in there) garethmcc: well .. Zend framework has always struck me as a bunch of modules to perform functions that you can bolt on jonnyb: aha, only just heard about symfony recently (NY 'fest) garethmcc: frameworks like symfony though is a complete redesign of the entire app which is why it would be a massive undertaking jonnyb: they do have an MCV thingy too afaik garethmcc: the problem is that converting to mvc is huge, especially with an existing codebase this large chibaguy: what would the benefits be? garethmcc: like chibaguy said, best to do it incrementally .. hell .. tiki can create its own mvcish structure eventually instead of trying to convert everything in one go
mvc makes it soooooo much easier to maintain jonnyb: exactly - and 50% of my time for instance is spent just bolting buts of tiki back on that have fallen off! garethmcc: ironically the projects that are the most difficult to convert to mvc are the ones that benefit the most, the really big ones
but of course all this talk of mvc and so on goes against what i read about abstraction on the dev wiki lol
chibaguy, the other benefit as well is that developing new things is faster
you can pretty much bolt a new feature in, and its pretty much standalone, without breaking or affecting other parts jonnyb: trackers might be a good example for this... garethmcc: mmmmm
interesting idea just came to mind jonnyb: we plan to completely pull them apart and rebuild them in Boston in March (show no fear!) chibaguy: Is it possible to mvc-ize just one feature, like trackers, intitially? jonnyb: trackers is the most horrid hairy bit of tiki i think garethmcc: each "part" of tiki converted to mvc instead of the entire app into one monolithic mvc project -: garethmcc keeps flinging stuff at the wall... garethmcc: hehe
well .. if we see tiki as a collection of individual apps just tied together into a global layout then yes you can chibaguy chibaguy: it isn't looked at that way, normally garethmcc: btw .. correct me if my assumptions are wrong, only had a couple hours to browse through the code so not a tiki expert by any means lol ***: redflo has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) chibaguy: I guess looking at trackers as a separate app would just be a contrived thing in order to implement mvc, if that's possible.
I think, conceptually, the interrelatedness of the features is what people value about Tiki. garethmcc: And I am not saying that I aren't interrelated
They would all be sharing the same database and configs etc
Right now though I think the best course is to start one file at a time abstracting function for each "page" into seperate classes, then refactoring common functionality into parent classes that can be shared across all the "page" classes
what we would probably find eventually is we incrementally create our own MVC structure chibaguy: Would this be related to what Carsten wrote about on the dev list, about finding the commonality in the wiki, blog, article pages, etc.? Sounds like something that should happen at the same time. garethmcc: ok ... well .. tiki is rather large
we could spend all the time and effort just investigating what is common with this and that this other part of tiki
and never actually get anything done
but
if we just start at a base level abstracting functions into new classes for each "page" jonnyb: +1 for a common interface to wiki/html text (in pages, articles, blogs, calendars, trackers etc) garethmcc: well then we can directly compare using those classes what is common and so build the common class that they can all inherit from jonnyb: probably what tiki needs most imho (structurally) garethmcc: is there a lot of love for smarty in tiki? jonnyb: not from me (my fave site was nosmarty.net for a while, but it's gone now) garethmcc: I ask because I have not used smarty much jonnyb: most of the problems in tiki stem from when people were writing complex logic and computation into the templates garethmcc: will be quite the learning curve for me
yes and thats exactly what I am trying o address
to* jonnyb: almost impossible to debug, massively wasteful in resources, slow, hard to read (i could go on... :P ) garethmcc: and not to mention that copy/pasted code is a nightmare to maintain
i even blogged about it lol ***: rtdos has joined #tikiwiki garethmcc: http://www.synaq.com/news-releases/ban-ctrlc-in-your-development chibaguy: I don't know directly, but I imagine things like smarty blocks, etc. for buttons, tabs, pagination, etc. are pretty useful, as is the caching, I guess. Unless there is a superior alternative. jonnyb: it's not the copying that's the problem, i reckon... garethmcc: chibaguy, if you have php files with the correct code in them already to do that and all you need to is include them its the same thing
doesnt rely on people having to learn yet another language as well
symfony calls them partials jonnyb: zend has a templating system somewhere in it (but this is idle chatter - we can't get rid of smarty) chibaguy: :-) jonnyb: no one has 300 hours spare garethmcc: i know
a lot of my questions are just trying to get to know tiki better as well
personally I am more comfortable working on the backend side of things, logic etc, so I am guessing there are guys that would be better suited at getting their feet wet with smarty hehe jonnyb: have you done much "community coding"? (i hadn't before coming to tiki) garethmcc: not on an open source project no jonnyb: it's rather different from my previous experience - either solo, in very small groups voluntarily or large teams commercially garethmcc: i have worked on large project with a distributed team jonnyb: somewhere on dev.t.o there a nice page about how the tiki project cannot possibly work - coding in a "wiki-way" is madness! garethmcc: well thats why I am trying to get a handle on peoples feelings and so on before i just jump in and go banana's jonnyb: and yet here we are 9 years on, and climbing!
most wise (not everyone does that, as you'll see in the code!) ***: olinuxx has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.linuxmao.org) garethmcc: bbiab ***: olinuxx has joined #tikiwiki marclaporte: 1st thing is to review our use of Smarty garethmcc: jonnyb: I see what you mean about the tracker module
oh hi marc marclaporte: and to upgrade to Smarty3 and take advantage of new benefits
hi garethmcc! jonnyb: marclaporte: just fixing that mysql 5 only thing... garethmcc: marclaporte: were you on FLOSS weekly? marclaporte: yes
jonnyb : tks jonnyb: i still have the bookmark on my desktop for that FLOSS video - didn't make it past the guy's intro... garethmcc: was an interesting discussion
the cohost seemed to enjoy harping on about automated tests lol marclaporte: hehe
I should have answered a bit better garethmcc: i thought you did really tbh
really well* marclaporte: thank you
so what type of project are you using Tiki for? garethmcc: well .. ever heard of second life?
i am trying to build stuff in SL that tie into a web based service that people in sl can use in their browsers etc
so kinda need wiki to describe the product, tracking to help with bug reporting, forums for the community to discuss stuff, blog to post about new releases etc and so no marclaporte: There is a browser within SL? garethmcc: no .. but you can make scripts in sl send data to a web service and so people can use a web app to influence stuff in sl
actually there is a browser in sl but it has no support for javascript or plugins like flash etc so rather limited jonnyb: hmm, odd - that sql breaks on my 5.4 mysql too - but i found something that does work ok on both (hope it does the same thing) ***: conner_bw has joined #tikiwiki garethmcc: anyone else listen to dan carlin's hardcore history podcast? CIA-37: tikiwiki: 03changi67 * r31919 10/trunk/lib/smarty_tiki/function.norecords.php: [ENH] New smarty plugin to manage no records entries
tikiwiki: 03changi67 * r31920 10/trunk/templates/ (43 files): [ENH] Deploy norecords smarty plugin 1/2 ***: conner_bw has quit IRC (Quit: conner_bw) Tiki|bot: Recent Bug: Tracker item: #3744 - - Use Tiki feature as homepage not working - http://dev.tiki.org/tiki-view_tracker_item.php?trackerId=5&itemId=3744 jonnyb: marclaporte: http://demo.tiki.org/trunk fixed - do you think i also need to do setup.sh there? (seems ok) marclaporte: usually, ye jonnyb: do you think it's to do with the error is chucks out? (`demotw:apache': invalid group) chealer: polom CIA-37: tikiwiki: 03jonnybradley * r31922 10/branches/experimental/xajax_removal/ (51 files in 7 dirs): [MRG] Automatic merge, trunk 31900 to 31921 ***: Lusserall has joined #tikiwiki marclaporte: jonnyb : that error has been there for a while, but seems harmless jonnyb: just wondering if it was why you always need to do setup.sh after svnup - i don't on other servers - might be connected Tiki|bot: New Forum Posts: Problems with Live Preview and WYSIWIG Editing - 6.1 - http://tiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?forumId=4&comments_parentId=40114 jonnyb: anyway - that sql error i fixed - and i'm playing with the modules :)
on http://demo.tiki.org/xajax_removal CIA-37: tikiwiki: 03changi67 * r31923 10/trunk/templates/ (41 files): [ENH] Deploy norecords smarty plugin 2/2 chibaguy: I mentioned thinking about a grid system for Tiki a while ago. Just to clarify, I don't mean trying to adopt a system like Blueprint or 960 intact. I mean something more along the lines of using the principles of a grid system to define...
...some CSS classes for element widths. jonnyb: ok, that makes sense chibaguy: This would be available for boxes in wikitext, too, for more attractive layout there. jonnyb: i'm just experiencing what you're saying i think on http://demo.tiki.org/xajax_removal
the header is fluid which produces some nasty alignment issues garethmcc: there is one advantage to using an existing grid "framework"
its tried, tested and used in many places very succesfully
the biggest disadvantage is implementation :/ chibaguy: We have to think about retrofitting, for one thing. garethmcc: exactly
using something like blueprint for example means going through all existing css and removing all attributes that influence width
and then going through every page that uses the css and adding the grid specific classes
not only that but a lot of the grid frameworks also need things laid out in a specific ways with parentdivs done just so with child divs inside them etc chibaguy: Actually I don't think widths are specified much for Tiki's elements, so there may not be a lot to remove. But we have to consider that Tiki's layout is very end-user configurable, so any system has to have a lot of tolerance for that. garethmcc: kind of "yikes"
jquery is very good at dynamically changing classes chibaguy: It'd be nice to not have to go that route, though. garethmcc: if the layouts are user configurable then it might be needed to have jquery do that, especially with that idea I read about dragging modules around ajax wise :/ chibaguy: This looks interesting to me: http://oocss.org/ garethmcc: very similar to blueprint chibaguy: I don't know what jonny has in mind for resizing of ajax-dragged modules. As far as I know, they will go to side columns, which have widths set, or to the horizontal top and bottom areas, where they'll probably need to have widths specified, but probably at the time of module creation. garethmcc: one thing to bear in mind
the more work you give the client the less the server does and therefore the more concurrency the server can support
tough one to draw the line though chibaguy: Tiki can be full-width and liquid, or fixed-width now, and it can have 1, 2, or 3 columns, sometimes in different combinations in one installation, so the 'grid' needs to be ok with that. garethmcc: me and the ui developer at work oten have arguments hehe chibaguy: well, there will be other opinions in the Tiki group, too, about changing something like this.
Though people are generally ok if it is clearly an improvement and there's no bad side-effect. garethmcc: well grid based css will only be an improvement chibaguy: People talk about Tiki being 'ugly' (front end, not code, in this case ;-) ) and I think one reason is there's no logic to the spacing. garethmcc: i noticed that too
one page will be laid out one way and another a different way
one thing that was slightly cringe worthy was the use of tables to layout pages
grid based css can resolve that too chibaguy: And when the page is wiki-based, people tend to have no guidelines on how to do well-spaced columns or module boxes.
We finally got rid of tables for layout of the main tiki parts at version 3, but there are still some layout tables here and there. garethmcc: i've seen a few forms on teh admin backend that uses tables quite a bit chibaguy: Yep.
Haven't been a high priority.
but they're steadily being replaced.
though slowly
Anyway, time to sleep here. g'night. jonnyb: chibaguy: i'm trying to work out what to do with "modularising" the bottom bar - mostly it has links in (report, share, powered by etc) - should i make a "link" module or...
ah, too late :P chibaguy: heh jonnyb: i'll work something out garethmcc: nn Chiba chibaguy: Yeah, I don't know if the parts down there should be separated. Well, I guess they should along the lines of how they're turned on or off in admin now. jonnyb: not for long! :) chibaguy: Unless you make a module with parameters to switch on|off the items. jonnyb: or why not something more generic
so it'll be able to do the "like" links etc...
hmmm, might be more interesting than i though - nn chibaguy chibaguy: well, a whole module for "powered by" maybe is overkill. On the other hand, the user-friendliness shouldn't be a step backwards from Tiki 6.
anyway, g'night ***: chibaguy has quit IRC (Quit: Find new themes for Tiki at http://themes.tikiwiki.org.)
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yuchien has joined #tikiwiki yuchien: hi ..
someone help me? my search bar is not showing up
i checked the search bar option under the look and feel. but the search bar is not showing up..
can someone help?
somebody? ***: Chris____ has joined #tikiwiki yuchien: http://allstarpedia.com/NHL
no search bar???? ***: Chris____ has quit IRC (Client Quit)
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Chris____ has quit IRC (Client Quit) Tiki|bot: New Forum Posts: Maxx - http://tiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?forumId=6&comments_parentId=40116 ***: yuchien has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) CIA-37: tikiwiki: 03jonnybradley * r31929 10/branches/experimental/xajax_removal/lib/modules/tiki-admin_modules.js: [ENH] modules revamp: Add edit and delete icons in module admin
tikiwiki: 03jonnybradley * r31930 10/branches/experimental/xajax_removal/ (lib/modules/modlib.php tiki-admin_modules.php): [FIX] modules revamp: Reset all module ord's to current position after new assign (needs checking, went wrong once) ***: rtdos has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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