[1:26] * Jyhem goes to bed [2:41] RobertPlummer left #tikiwiki [3:2] goj_killedByISP joined #tikiwiki [3:2] goj_killedByISP joined #tikiwiki [3:43] sandroandrade joined #tikiwiki [6:17] dlech left #tikiwiki [6:58] luciash joined #tikiwiki [9:14] Jenser joined #tikiwiki [9:14] Jenser left #tikiwiki [9:49] fidel hi - got issues with tiki-importer some days ago - as a next step i did open a ticket/issue on the dev side. basically an import of large .xml files from mediawiki to tiki caused problems here - but i got no error-output ...which makes me further testing kinda difficult [9:49] fidel not sure if i should adjust the php mem limit or the processing time ...as i just got no single error-output from the tiki-importer [9:50] fidel could someone point me into the right direction on where to check for error-entries a tiki-install might do on a linux system? [9:50] fidel issue: http://dev.tiki.org/tiki-view_tracker_item.php?itemId=4188 [10:47] redflo joined #tikiwiki [10:54] Jyhem Polom [11:24] jonnyb joined #tikiwiki [11:27] Jyhem Hi jonnyb ! [11:27] Jyhem Been looking through my rebuild logs. 2h10 total [11:29] Jyhem 25 min spent on one page, which does not display (timeout) and contains a report of my huge tracker, with view="sheet" [11:30] Jyhem Might the reports be not paginated by default ? I'll wait for Robert for an answer to that [11:31] Jyhem the rest is taken by processing trackeritems, with a slowdown on the 25000 ones with 4 ''item links'' [11:41] jonnyb sounds about right - maybe that's just too many items for uni-search? [11:44] Jyhem Well, item processing speed goes from 100/s to 4-5/s depending on the tracker [11:46] Jyhem the 100/s have 1 itemlink but none of the fields are searchable (forgot to make them searchable, obviously). [11:46] Jyhem So either i am very careful on how I design the trackers, or i consider I should use mysql search [11:47] Jyhem What do I lose again without uni-search ? [11:50] jonnyb search that works [11:50] jonnyb phone, bbl [12:11] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03sylvieg * r40851 10/trunk/ (38 files in 18 dirs): [MRG] Automatic merge, branches/9.x 40812 to 40850 [13:28] ricks99 joined #tikiwiki [13:33] ricks99 polom y [13:33] ricks99 'all [14:3] fidel hi - found another typo in the german localization of tiki 8.3. Navigate via: 'Verwalten' -> 'Berechtigungen'. There is a checkbox 'Zeihe Berechitungen für deaktivierte Funktionen'. Should be 'Zeige Berechtigungen für deaktivierte Funktionen'. [14:4] fidel Berechitungen vs Berechtigungen [14:4] fidel typo not more [14:8] RobertPlummer joined #tikiwiki [14:29] RobertPlummer joined #tikiwiki [14:31] RobertPlummer polom all [14:42] changi|morphee RobertPlummer: hi [14:43] changi RobertPlummer: did not have time to make the alph on thursday, but apparently it was not the time :) [14:43] changi RobertPlummer: maybe i'll have time this thursday [14:43] changi RobertPlummer: are you ok with that ? [14:56] RobertPlummer changi: I think that is a good thing. [14:56] RobertPlummer Jyhem, what do you think? [14:59] RobertPlummerMob joined #tikiwiki [14:59] radek82 joined #tikiwiki [15:4] RobertPlummerMob joined #tikiwiki [15:9] sandroandrade joined #tikiwiki [15:20] RobertPlummer joined #tikiwiki [15:21] rodrigoprimo joined #tikiwiki [15:33] RobertPlummer So changi, what are you up to today? [15:52] Jyhem polom [15:52] * Jyhem back from late eating [15:54] Jyhem I guess I'm available on thursday, but I would like to have Jonny's opinion on what the script he removed was supposed to do. [15:54] Jyhem Meaning, what's wrong witout it ? [15:55] Jyhem s/witout/without/ [15:57] Trebly Hi, Help, I am working on an installation of 8.3. There is a curious problem with image-galleries after batchload. The lib function rebuild_thumbnails only deletes old thumbs, but after : 1- thumb files which are a simple copy of the image are created into the image-dir (path no db) (which soft do this and where ? I am searching) these files and are not registered in images_data in [15:57] Trebly db so gallery crashes. I have found nothing about in tiki-dev list [15:59] RobertPlummer Jyhem agreed. Trebly I've not had that problem, but Image Galleries are not in active development, correct? [15:59] RobertPlummer Trebly: We are migrating to File Galleries, right? [16:3] marclaporte joined #tikiwiki [16:3] RobertPlummer marclaporte: Polom [16:4] marclaporte polom [16:5] Jyhem polom marclaporte [16:5] Trebly OK, the problem is that I can't make function image gallery in 5.3. I use always galleries into directories. I make a more detailed check to compare upload file by file and batch upload which don't generates the thumbs (it should), Ok come back in a few minutes. [16:6] RobertPlummer Trebly, ok [16:19] Jenser joined #tikiwiki [16:39] benoitg joined #tikiwiki [17:2] eromneg joined #tikiwiki [17:25] jonnyb joined #tikiwiki [17:36] jonnyb pol [17:36] jonnyb om [17:37] Jyhem he [17:37] Jyhem llo [17:48] Tiki|bot New Forum Posts: High CPU Usage - http://tiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?forumId=6&comments_parentId=43784 [18:1] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03jonnybradley * r40852 10/branches/9.x/lib/tikilib.php: [18:1] CIA-36 tikiwiki: [FIX] switch theme: Fix for anonymous users - thanks Chibaguy [18:1] CIA-36 tikiwiki: (duplicated a bunch of ugly code for safety - TODO: rename style and style_option prefs so they match the user prefs for Tiki 10) [18:14] jonnyb hi RobertPlummer - all my img plugin images had edit icons linking to edit_draw.php - shouldn't those be only for svg files? [18:14] RobertPlummer jonnyb: Nope, that is a new feature in 9, you can edit standard images ;) [18:14] jonnyb oh? [18:14] RobertPlummer It links to the picture as an external. [18:14] RobertPlummer and you draw on top of it. [18:15] jonnyb hmm... [18:15] * jonnyb clicks [18:15] RobertPlummer lol [18:15] RobertPlummer I didn't say there wouldn't be bugs, I've not tested that in a bit, but will fix if needed. [18:16] jonnyb ew, stops it bring a thumbnail... [18:17] RobertPlummer jonnyb: Yea I had some trouble with the thumbnails. Couldn't sort out the caching. [18:17] benoitg joined #tikiwiki [18:21] RobertPlummer jonnyb: The reason it stops the thumpnail is that the image becomes an svg image. [18:21] RobertPlummer Those are handled differently. [18:22] RobertPlummer And there really isn't a way to generate a thumbnail from svg, you are just downloading the whole image. [18:22] jonnyb but it come out at the wrong size not and has messed the page up... :( [18:23] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03robertplummer * r40853 10/branches/9.x/lib/jquery_tiki/tiki-jquery.js: [FIX] wiki table editor could be escaped with the right syntax, needed to make sure it was added as an attribute to ensure escaped [18:23] RobertPlummer How big was the photo? [18:23] RobertPlummer When you say "messed that page up" could you clarify? [19:8] Dr{Wh0} joined #tikiwiki [19:9] Dr{Wh0} Q. I am 24 hours into setup and use of TikiWiki and I am a little lost. I want to make a simple shopping cart. I see lots of peices but no clear steps to make it all work. Does such a document exist? [19:16] ricks99 not sure of the status of the docs. have you checked doc.tiki.org [19:20] Dr{Wh0} ricks99: ya I dont see any docs that describe the steps but lots of peices and technical details. [19:21] Dr{Wh0} stuff like "record cart orders in trackers (register users)" -> "Order Profile" where i am supposed to put some wiki page but i dont even have an idea what this page is for. [19:22] jonnyb hi Dr{Wh0} - have you checked out the profiles? [19:22] ricks99 ah.. thx jonny [19:22] jonnyb there's one called TikiKart what sets up a simple shopping site [19:22] jonnyb but it's quite out of date [19:23] jonnyb if you primarily need an e-commerce platform and don't fancy helping out on some improvements the tiki may not be for you... [19:23] jonnyb but the FLOSS alternatives aren't great - we'd love some help! :) [19:24] jonnyb http://profiles.tiki.org/TikiKart [19:24] Dr{Wh0} I dont mind helping. So far I am happy with this project and am considering moving my sites to it. But I have a lot to learn it seems. [19:24] jonnyb i'm just finishing a large e-commerce site in tiki 9, but can't feed back anything from it yet - launching in a few weeks [19:25] jonnyb mmm, tiki is a big place! [19:25] Dr{Wh0} I will have to have one of my engineers build a payment module for PlugnPay [19:25] jonnyb coo - don't know that one [19:26] Dr{Wh0} its simmilar to cybercash [19:26] jonnyb we only really have PayPal so far (and a community currency platform called cclite) [19:26] jonnyb but it's fairly extensible [19:27] Dr{Wh0} I would be glad to contribute back our module code if I can get it all done. [19:27] jonnyb nice, thanks! [19:28] jonnyb i did the cclite one, so might be able to help (or explain some of my mess! :) ) [19:29] jonnyb we could really do with a more plugin/modular approach to the payment gateways so it's easier to add new ones (preferably without much new coding - they're mostly the same...) [19:30] Dr{Wh0} I had no problem add a "Add to cart" button but I cant seem to find the actual cart : ( [19:32] jonnyb ah, it's a "module" in tiki terminology [19:33] jonnyb the profile sets all that up for you - go to admin/profiles and search for tikikart [19:33] jonnyb it also sets up a basic "tracker" to contain the products [19:35] Dr{Wh0} jonnyb: I am just starting this dev site so it will be a while. I have installed 8 but I am thining by the time im done 9 will be out. Does it make sense to just start with 9? [19:35] Dr{Wh0} seems like this is a lot easier to patch than joomla or drupal [19:35] Dr{Wh0} patch/upgrade [19:36] jonnyb yes, we have lots of customisation "entry points" [19:39] Dr{Wh0} looks like the tikikart2 is only in 9 if im understanding the search for profiles screen. [19:52] Dr{Wh0} well it seems to have worked on 8. [19:54] benoitg joined #tikiwiki [20:1] benoitg joined #tikiwiki [20:4] marclaporte Dr{Wh0}: crm.tiki.org has a basic cart in action. I am sending you login in PM [20:8] benoitg joined #tikiwiki [20:8] marclaporte Dr{Wh0}: when you are ready: http://dev.tiki.org/How+to+get+commit+access [20:10] Dr{Wh0} is this v9? [20:10] RobertPlummer Dr{Wh0}: Before I was involved with Tiki I worked in ecommerce for 5 years, let me know if I can be of help. Tiki is so customizable I think we've had a hard time building a complete system because every install has been different. But I have worked with tikikart part of the reason I wrote Tracker Query lib. [20:11] RobertPlummer marclaporte, how are you today? [20:12] RobertPlummer marclaporte: Did you see my commit for JisonParser_Wiki yesterday? [20:13] RobertPlummer marclaporte: Brought in the working lists that we needed to get it from sort of a proof of concept to alpha. [20:18] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03robertplummer * r40854 10/branches/8.x/lib/jquery_tiki/tiki-jquery.js: [FIX] backport from 9, setting value so it can't be escaped with wiki syntax [20:19] Dr{Wh0} http://imgur.com/W1bov I dont even see these options on crm.tiki.org. [20:22] RobertPlummer Dr{Wh0}: Documentation is usually a bit behind. [20:23] RobertPlummer marclaporte, jonnyb, Jyhem, Jyhem_laptop can we have a quick meeting to prioritize the regressions in 9.x? [20:25] jonnyb hi RobertPlummer, working on the html entity upgrade script thing [20:25] swehes joined #tikiwiki [20:25] swehes hello [20:25] RobertPlummer jonnyb: Anything I can do? [20:26] swehes I have a question for you guys [20:26] Tiki|bot Welcome to the official Tiki Wiki CMS Groupware channel. Please ask your question directly. Don't ask to ask. Someone will reply if and when they know the answer. Welcome again and please stay a while. Thank you! [20:26] Tiki|bot Welcome to the official Tiki Wiki CMS Groupware channel. Please ask your question directly. Don't ask to ask. Someone will reply if and when they know the answer. Welcome again and please stay a while. Thank you! [20:27] swehes hehehe. How do I create a batch upload file for categories? [20:27] Jyhem hi RobertPlummer, trying to eal with a thrown error in tiki-searchindex.php [20:27] swehes looking for the structure that tikiwiki uses [20:27] RobertPlummer Jyhem eal? [20:28] Jyhem s/eal/deal/ [20:29] ricks99 swehes: see "creating categories in batch from CSV file" in the docs [20:29] RobertPlummer jonnyb: Can I take a look at what you have? [20:30] swehes ricks99: Thanks [20:30] jonnyb just need to focus on it - running out of time [20:30] Loll78 joined #tikiwiki [20:30] RobertPlummer ok [20:30] jonnyb thanks [20:34] marclaporte Dr{Wh0}: Tiki [20:35] marclaporte Dr{Wh0}: crm.tiki.org is Tiki6 [20:35] Jyhem I didn't even intend to spend the afternoon on that :-( I planned to get the hang of tracker+query and a demo running :-( [20:36] Dr{Wh0} marclaporte: thanks. [20:36] swehes can you have same category name in different top categories? Such as creating a Wiki category that has sub category of trees and have a sub category of trees in the top category of Forum? [20:36] Dr{Wh0} so my qestions. If I want to implement a cart should I use 9 or 8 or ? [20:36] marclaporte Dr{Wh0}: 9 [20:37] Dr{Wh0} marclaporte: thanks :) [20:37] marclaporte use from SVN so you can get easy updates [20:37] Dr{Wh0} yep exactly my plan thanks. [20:37] marclaporte http://dev.tiki.org/Get+code#Using_Dev_9.x_branch_from_SVN [20:37] Dr{Wh0} ill request commit status after I break this branch a few times :) [20:38] marclaporte hahahahah [20:38] marclaporte good plan! [20:38] marclaporte So 7 and 8 were huge releases [20:38] marclaporte and Tiki is less stable than usual [20:38] marclaporte but this is all converging to be just nice in Tiki9 LTS [20:38] marclaporte Tiki9 will be supported at least 2 years [20:39] Dr{Wh0} eta. [20:39] marclaporte 9.0 in May [20:39] Dr{Wh0} k. so very soon. [20:39] marclaporte then a .x release each month [20:40] marclaporte when http://dev.tiki.org/Regressions+in+9x is nearly dealt with, it will be time for 9.0 [20:40] marclaporte 10.0 in October ! [20:42] Dr{Wh0} most of my programmers here are comfortable with drupal but all know smarty. They are still very uneasy with my desire to jump away from drupal as they are comfortable in how to modify it. your 2c worth the learning curve is _____? [20:42] marclaporte Dr{Wh0}: Tiki code is much simpler [20:43] marclaporte Show them this: http://prezi.com/bemzj02mmypm/how-cms-architecture-affects-dev-communities/ [20:44] marclaporte Dr{Wh0}: Another important difference is that they can commit to main code base and are not relegated to third-party/extension status [20:44] marclaporte They can put things in core, which is very difficult in Drupal [20:46] marclaporte Other difference: Drupal has a multitude of modules for the same use case: Ex: DrupalCommerce vs Ubercart vs many others [20:46] marclaporte In Tiki, everyone collaborates around the same shopping cart [20:47] marclaporte Tiki has new versions every 6 months (with every 3rd version as LTS) [20:47] marclaporte Drupal has releases every 2-3 years [20:47] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03jonnybradley * r40855 10/branches/9.x/installer/tiki-installer.php: [FIX] installer: use include_once in case headerlib was already included [20:48] marclaporte globally, Tiki commerce features are less developped than the collaboration & content management aspects [20:48] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03robertplummer * r40856 10/branches/9.x/tiki-pagehistory.php: [FIX] Ensure permissions from page history lookup by object type [20:50] RobertPlummer marclaporte: I believe that last fix ensures permissions are correctly inherited to anons for history [20:50] RobertPlummer (and source) [20:50] marclaporte But you & your programmers can make it better and not run the risk of having your project in an abandoned/un-upgradeable extension [20:51] marclaporte eromneg: ping [20:52] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03jonnybradley * r40857 10/branches/9.x/lib/parser/parserlib.php: Add important TODO comment in parserlib [20:52] Dr{Wh0} marclaporte: that presentation needs audio : ) [20:53] marclaporte Dr{Wh0}: yes, I wish I had recorded it! It was dizzying! [20:53] RobertPlummer jonnyb, Jyhem I'm adding a wysiwyg area on http://dev.tiki.org/tiki-editpage.php?page=Regressions%20in%209x [20:53] jonnyb coo, it's very own area :D [20:54] RobertPlummer cleanup ;) [20:58] Dr{Wh0} should I drop all my v8 tables to update to v9 or are they compatible? [21:2] RobertPlummer Dr{Wh0}: You mean mysql tables? [21:2] Dr{Wh0} ya [21:2] RobertPlummer Dr{Wh0}: Tiki has an automated upgrade system, it will take case of it. [21:2] Dr{Wh0} cool. very nice. [21:3] RobertPlummer Dr{Wh0}: Make sure you backup before hand, we are messing with encoding, funky stuff. [21:3] swehes @marclaporte: I like the link you posted. :) [21:4] ricks99 Dr{Wh0}: if you'r new to Tiki, be sure to check out the beginner's guides [21:4] ricks99 http://tikiforsmarties.com :) [21:7] marclaporte http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/04/06/0048212/animated-presentations-using-svg [21:7] marclaporte swehes: :-) [21:7] marclaporte swehes & Dr{Wh0}: here is another: http://tiki.org/Tiki+vs+Drupal [21:7] marclaporte (we get that question sometimes) :-) [21:8] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03jonnybradley * r40858 10/branches/9.x/installer/schema/999999991_decode_pages_sources_tiki.php: [21:8] CIA-36 tikiwiki: [FIX] html entities: Take #3 - Replace 999999991 upgrade script with one that only decodes html entities inside plugin argument blocks instead of the whole wiki page. [21:8] CIA-36 tikiwiki: Tested with both web and shell installers but, as is always recommended, make a backup of your database before running. [21:8] CIA-36 tikiwiki: If you have run the installer before this commit you will need to remove the row from the database manually (e.g. using: "DELETE FROM `tiki_schema` WHERE `patch_name` = '999999991_decode_pages_sources_tiki';" ) [21:8] jonnyb ok, there it is - can anyone please sanity check it? instructions in the commit msg [21:9] jonnyb oh yes, and make a backup first!!! :) [21:18] marclaporte joined #tikiwiki [21:25] Jyhem updating [21:28] * jonnyb thinks Jyhem is brave (and hopes he's made a backup!) [21:29] jonnyb by the way Jyhem, it might be an idea to make a backup in a zip file or something of your search index too, just in case :) [21:36] Dr{Wh0} I noticed that in 8 and 9 when I enable sefurl and copy _htaccess to .htaccess i get redirected to /HomePage and get a object not found error. [21:36] Jyhem still updating [21:36] Jyhem (externals) [21:37] eromneg Hi everyone [21:37] GillesM joined #tikiwiki [21:37] * Jyhem wonders why he should backup a defective search index [21:37] Jyhem Updated to revision 40858. [21:38] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03jonnybradley * r40859 10/branches/9.x/lib/wiki-plugins/wikiplugin_img.php: [FIX] img: Make the "draw" edit icons hide when wiki_edit_icons_toggle (and add "experimental" to the tooltip, and check $tiki_p_edit) [21:38] GillesM hello [21:39] Jyhem Upgrade operations executed successfully: 8 SQL queries. [21:39] * Jyhem notices he is already not up to date [21:40] jonnyb did you remove the tiki_schema row? (if needed) [21:40] jonnyb hi GillesM [21:41] Jyhem not needed, I think [21:42] Jyhem connexion pop-up is slightly weird (not a regression) [21:43] jonnyb oh? connexion pop-up? [21:44] jonnyb that script was there for several weeks, i re-wrote it so if you'd updated recently it would have been run already [21:44] Jyhem nice work on the highlighter [21:45] Jyhem hmm, "recently" is debatable [21:45] * Jyhem looks at mysqladmin [21:46] jonnyb recently would be since 13 december last yeas in this case :) [21:47] Jyhem Ahhh, i thought it was more recent. [21:47] Dr{Wh0} meh. New lamp box had mod_rewrite disabled by default ... [21:47] Jyhem So yes, I had it : 999999991_decode_pages_sources_tiki 2012-02-27 15:05:51 [21:47] Jyhem and i did not remove it [21:48] Jyhem should I stil remove it manually ? [21:48] jonnyb yes, and then retest [21:49] jonnyb if it didn't break anything last time it shouldn't actually do anything this time (in theory!) [21:50] Jyhem It's ok, I can recover from the future production daily backups [21:51] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03jonnybradley * r40860 10/branches/9.x/lib/parser/parserlib.php: [FIX] plugins: Don't htmldecode the plugin body for the popup edit form. No longer needed following other fixes to the parser. [21:52] jonnyb ok marclaporte - that's (hopefully) the last of the dreaded html entity weirdness - fingers crossed (a lot) [21:52] Jyhem suppressed from database. Now back to installer, i guess ? [21:52] jonnyb yup [21:52] jonnyb will take a bit longer if you have lots of wiki pages [21:53] Jyhem That's weird: Upgrade operations executed successfully: 7 SQL queries. [21:53] Jyhem I expected 1 [21:53] jonnyb yes, it's not sql so doesn't get logged [21:54] GillesM I upgraded 8.3 over 5.3 and My header is over the menu .. before it was upper.. idea ? [21:54] jonnyb 6 or 7 is normal for no change for some reason [21:54] Jyhem I mean I just upgraded and it was 8. Now I remove 1 and it's 7 ? [21:54] jonnyb GillesM: yes, the modules got revamped in 7 or 8, some manual adjustment may be required [21:55] * Jyhem is tempted to roll the installer again just to see what happens [21:55] Jyhem OK, back in Tiki [21:56] Jyhem Interestingly, the installer did not log me out this time [21:59] Jyhem Nothing "interesting" happening. All seems good. Anything special to watch out for ? [22:2] jonnyb yay! [22:2] jonnyb if you had plugins with $quot; all over the place then this script will remove them [22:3] Jyhem Weird thing with reports (not a regression): I can create one from reports menu, but when i edit it, it suddendly requires a title ans type which it was doing without before [22:4] Jyhem Also, there is a limit (very very good), but no pagination :-( [22:9] Jyhem Well, this site was created in february, and is not in production, so I doubt I had plugins with $quot; all over the place [22:9] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03jonnybradley * r40861 10/branches/9.x/templates/structures_toc-leaf.tpl: [FIX] {toc}: Typo preventing page aliases being shown (thanks eromneg) [22:10] eromneg cheers jonny [22:10] * Jyhem looks at commits and feel out of date already :-( [22:10] Jyhem Bravo Jonny! [22:11] * Jyhem thinks jonnyb deserves 2 weeks of holidays [22:11] jonnyb :D [22:11] eromneg does the structure top page alias problem look easy or tricky? [22:11] * jonnyb doesn't fancy getting up early tomorrow though... [22:17] RobertPlummer jonnyb: Congrats on that last one, sorry I'm not as fast as you. [22:18] RobertPlummer jonnyb is a code wiz! [22:18] jonnyb it's a pre-vacation code-frenzy! :O [22:18] jonnyb i _almost_ want to stay and play - but sun and diving seem tempting... [22:22] GillesM jonnyb, how can I force floatright to sitelogo? [22:24] jonnyb add it to the module style param? e.g. float:right; (if that don't work try !important after it) [22:25] benoitg joined #tikiwiki [22:28] CIA-36 tikiwiki: 03jonnybradley * r40862 10/branches/9.x/_htaccess: [FIX] image revamp: missing rewrite rule for img/icons/large [22:28] GillesM ko [22:29] GillesM ok [22:31] GillesM jonnyb, and if I want center the logo ? [22:31] GillesM I just have right or left now [22:31] jonnyb :D [22:32] jonnyb try "margin: 0 auto;" (doesn't always work) [22:33] GillesM no it doesn't work [22:33] jonnyb if it's fixed width then "position:absolute;left:442px;" (or whatever) [22:33] GillesM and if the size is redefined ? [22:33] jonnyb once a module has "position:absolute" you can drag it about then click "sae" [22:34] jonnyb the margin thing might work... [22:34] jonnyb sae/save [22:38] GillesM I would like to force